"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series
Discussion
andy97 said:
I will caveat my reply by emphasising that I am not to co-ordinator of MC anymore. I did not race in MC this year but have done previously and may do again next year.
IMHO A car cannot race with any old 2.5V6, it has to be the 2.5V6 from that model in the range
If a bodyshell never came with an S54 engine option, it cant race with one now.
CSCC have always had a view that there is no point in having rules that cant be policed, so no point in specifying internals when there is no intention to strip down; BUT, it is reasonable to expect competitors to comply with the (few) simple rules it does have and this means that the car has to have the engine type from the car in the range it is intended to represent.
As I said, the club (on my recommendation) made an exception for the 3.2V6 Vectra on the basis that we thought we were going to get a stand alone class of them racing with us. We did not and I was wrong.
One problem is that the rule is clearly open to interpretation, another is that it's plain daft as it's actually counterproductive - the main purpose of installing an S54 is reliability/cost. I understand that there have to be rules in place, and in general I think the rules of MC are fantastic. IMHO A car cannot race with any old 2.5V6, it has to be the 2.5V6 from that model in the range
If a bodyshell never came with an S54 engine option, it cant race with one now.
CSCC have always had a view that there is no point in having rules that cant be policed, so no point in specifying internals when there is no intention to strip down; BUT, it is reasonable to expect competitors to comply with the (few) simple rules it does have and this means that the car has to have the engine type from the car in the range it is intended to represent.
As I said, the club (on my recommendation) made an exception for the 3.2V6 Vectra on the basis that we thought we were going to get a stand alone class of them racing with us. We did not and I was wrong.
Technically speaking, a Z3 is an E36. The Z3M came with an S54, so that's that sorted!
Cheburator mk2 said:
But the rules are rules. What's there stopping me from building a 500+ 16v 944 Turbo - the head is sitting at home and I have done it before...
The rules! Porsche never made a 16v 944 Turbo.Whether they would let you build a 968 Turbo is another matter, but even that was an 8v ISTR
e36er said:
Technically speaking, a Z3 is an E36. The Z3M came with an S54, so that's that sorted!
No, because the e36 3 series saloon didn't.Anyone that is running an S54 in an e36 is breaking the rules. I just don't know whether anyone is or not? Thankfully not an issue I have to deal with anymore!
Cheburator mk2 said:
A played with S54 will always make a lot more than a played with S50. Fact. That way you get the best of both worlds - a more powerful and tractable engine in a lighter chassis.
As to the car being fast not just because of the engine - of course. It benefits from good suspension, good setup and a good driver. But the rules are rules. What's there stopping me from building a 500+ 16v 944 Turbo - the head is sitting at home and I have done it before...
I'm almost certain that after just an airbox and map, the difference between the 2 is minimal, not 'a lot more'. As to the car being fast not just because of the engine - of course. It benefits from good suspension, good setup and a good driver. But the rules are rules. What's there stopping me from building a 500+ 16v 944 Turbo - the head is sitting at home and I have done it before...
There's nothing stopping you building your engine to 500+ bhp, this is my point!
There are definitely people with budgets to chase big power, but they don't because they're already near the front and the racing is great. It'd be a shame if the series changed rules that would affect the eligibility of cars, as I suspect they'd go elsewhere which in turn have a negative effect on the series.
e36er said:
I'm almost certain that after just an airbox and map, the difference between the 2 is minimal, not 'a lot more'.
I think the S50 and S54 share 3 common components. The S54 is far more advanced and capable of making 400+ reliably.e36er said:
There's nothing stopping you building your engine to 500+ bhp, this is my point!
There are definitely people with budgets to chase big power, but they don't because they're already near the front and the racing is great. It'd be a shame if the series changed rules that would affect the eligibility of cars, as I suspect they'd go elsewhere which in turn have a negative effect on the series.
But the rules are rules. They maybe stupid, but they are there and by entering the series you subscribe to them. If you get caught, then it is your problem. It's like speeding on the public road. I think that a 70mph limit is daft on a deserted A1(M) at 6:00am in August. And I did brake it. Yet, if I was stopped, I would expect to get done by the police.There are definitely people with budgets to chase big power, but they don't because they're already near the front and the racing is great. It'd be a shame if the series changed rules that would affect the eligibility of cars, as I suspect they'd go elsewhere which in turn have a negative effect on the series.
And btw, Porsche did built a 16v 944T iteration - it was used in IMSA...
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Tuesday 13th October 17:11
e36er said:
.... It'd be a shame if the series changed rules that would affect the eligibility of cars, as I suspect they'd go elsewhere which in turn have a negative effect on the series.
The rules have never been any different, and are based in the same philosophy as virtually all the CSCC series, and yet some still try to bend them, sigh!And some accuse people of bending them without offering any proof, just to hide the fact that they aren't fast enough. Lol!
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 13th October 19:13
Cheburator mk2 said:
And btw, Porsche did built a 16v 944T iteration - it was used in IMSA...
]
Still not eligible - it has to be a road car, and IIRC based on a car available in EU.]
The M3 GTR was specifically excluded because it was deemed to be a homologation special outside the spirit of the regs - they built just 3 x road cars to make it eligible for a U.S. race series.
andy97 said:
The rules have never been any different, and are based in the same philosophy as virtually all the CSCC series, and yet some still try to bend them, sigh!
And some accuse people of bending them without offering any proof, just to hide the fact that they aren't fast enough. Lol!
Do you want me to put a picture of the S54 in the E36 engine bay? And some accuse people of bending them without offering any proof, just to hide the fact that they aren't fast enough. Lol!
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 13th October 19:13
andy97 said:
Send it to the CSCC office.
Why would I want to do this? Forcing Tom to fit a S50 is not going to make my 928 competitive against it. Better suspension and seat time will. However, when somebody tries to move my car and Chilton's car into a different series, while allowing the M3 to run with an obvious breach of the most basic rules, then I get a bit peed off...Cheburator mk2 said:
Why would I want to do this? Forcing Tom to fit a S50 is not going to make my 928 competitive against it. Better suspension and seat time will. However, when somebody tries to move my car and Chilton's car into a different series, while allowing the M3 to run with an obvious breach of the most basic rules, then I get a bit peed off...
Alex, IF Tom, or anyone else is running a car that's against the rules then they should be asked to change the car to comply. Just the same as you should be asked to race your car in the correct series for it.I genuinely do not know if Tom, or anyone else is running an S54 engine in an E36, and even if you published the photo, I wouldn't know what I was looking at.
It's not fair on the other competitors in MC if a car is illegal, and it's not fair on the other competitors in FC that you are running a car that was only available post 1991 iwith a 5.4 litre engine in a series that's designed for pre 1990 cars.
CSCC doesn't have many rules but it's not unreasonable to expect competitors to comply with the ones they do have.
andy97 said:
Alex, IF Tom, or anyone else is running a car that's against the rules then they should be asked to change the car to comply. Just the same as you should be asked to race your car in the correct series for it.
I genuinely do not know if Tom, or anyone else is running an S54 engine in an E36, and even if you published the photo, I wouldn't know what I was looking at.
It's not fair on the other competitors in MC if a car is illegal, and it's not fair on the other competitors in FC that you are running a car that was only available post 1991 iwith a 5.4 litre engine in a series that's designed for pre 1990 cars.
CSCC doesn't have many rules but it's not unreasonable to expect competitors to comply with the ones they do have.
I think you are right overall... To be fair, my 928 is a GT, so it does not run the GTS arches, but if runs a 5.5ltr engine. However, unlike the S54, which is entirely different from the S50, the GTS uses a different crank, rod and the same diameter pistons, in the same block to achieve the extra 400cc. That is all... I shall wait and see what happens next year - both the 928 and the 944 will be registered for both series if allowed. If not, I will struggle with the 928 in MC as I love the old barge and try and make the 944T really competitive in FC (within the rules)I genuinely do not know if Tom, or anyone else is running an S54 engine in an E36, and even if you published the photo, I wouldn't know what I was looking at.
It's not fair on the other competitors in MC if a car is illegal, and it's not fair on the other competitors in FC that you are running a car that was only available post 1991 iwith a 5.4 litre engine in a series that's designed for pre 1990 cars.
CSCC doesn't have many rules but it's not unreasonable to expect competitors to comply with the ones they do have.
PistonSquizz said:
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like to enter MC either next year or the one after and I wouldn't want my M3 Evo up against someone running an S54 in theirs personally. It will be hard enough to become competitive without additional stuff like that.
Should have bought a scoob... ;-)TroubledSoul said:
I'd like to enter MC either next year or the one after and I wouldn't want my M3 Evo up against someone running an S54 in theirs personally. It will be hard enough to become competitive without additional stuff like that.
We ran our E36 with an S50 this year for our first outing in MC and did ok. Id say we were better than 50;50 alongside anybody that may or may not be using an S54 
But i think youll need an S50 running decent bhp to keep up with them.
I'll have to go and race elsewhere I haven't got the money to keep up with the m3s every meeting. I only won outright at spa because I put a new set of boots on. My cars a 1988 engine modifications were unrestricted as I understood. Hence why nic runs a 2.5 litre engine in his esprit that they never left the factory with. Some of the spoilers on cars in fc aren't to original silhouette as per the rules.
Edited by BIG GT2 on Wednesday 14th October 22:28
Edited by BIG GT2 on Thursday 15th October 10:45
Ps my engines standard bar steel liners and equal length headers, If me and alex have to move I'd love to know how half the cars on the grid are eligible. Concentrate on making the car go round the bends and make your car fast and get kicked out, sounds like someones threw there toys out the pram.
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