New Mazda RX8 Cup to launch in 750MC Roadsports Series
Discussion
stacy said:
That's not quite factually correct, the CSCC do turn cars away. They also do a pretty good job of what they do. You should try it.
I presume the real niggle is the regularity of Andy's popping up to point out which of the CSCC grids any given car in the world is eligible for, across the many years he has been doing so, and across the multitude of forums he can access. I'm with you, it started getting a touch annoying, but over time I think you just have to take a step back, acknowledge defeat, give him a round of applause and quietly wish he was working for /your/ championship.. I think the world would be a poorer place if he stopped doing it now. ;-)
Stacy et al, I'm not paid by the CSCC to promote their series, I'm a volunteer and it's no secret that I'm a CSCC committee member, but I do have responsibility for PR as well as being the co-ordinator for the new "modern classics" series and an occasional tin tops racer. I'm passionate about club racing and want more people to experience what I have experienced. If I have helped the CSCC achieve success over the last few years then I'm delighted and I'm sorry if I have annoyed a few! That said I also try to be supportive of series or clubs I am not a member of but have had some association or affection for like British gt (gt4), britcar, 750, Monoposto, sports 2000, clubmans k- sport 1600, the alfa series, the crossle challenge, SR and GT and the 360 mrc (6hour club level race) etc etc.I presume the real niggle is the regularity of Andy's popping up to point out which of the CSCC grids any given car in the world is eligible for, across the many years he has been doing so, and across the multitude of forums he can access. I'm with you, it started getting a touch annoying, but over time I think you just have to take a step back, acknowledge defeat, give him a round of applause and quietly wish he was working for /your/ championship.. I think the world would be a poorer place if he stopped doing it now. ;-)
At the end of the day forums are free to participate in for those that are interested; members of other series are free to post about their series if they wish. If they don't want to, fine, more fool them, but don't criticise me for doing what others can also do but don't seem to bother, I'm happy with what I have achieved on behalf ofthe CSCC. Club racing needs advocates, take my lead and see where it gets you!
Edited by andy97 on Sunday 10th March 22:02
Interesting. Well, it's a sample of one but let's assume it's the case. Power loss probably a function of compression, which is probably a function of wear. Assuming they have the right components and dont have dodgy home brew porting the only two times that's happened to me have been;
1. An over rev of an unbalanced engine damaged a side seal. Piston engines make more of a fuss in my experience..
2. A failure to premix the right amount of oil having blanked off the sump injectors.
Like I said, if put together correctly and looked after they are just fine for racing. No head gasket failures, no conrods through the block, no bouncing valves and no stones in your cam belt.
What you must never do is let them overheat. Before I ran twin belts I threw one on the Snetterton start finish straight. By the time I checked the gauges on the Revett straight (old circuit) the motor was history. they must be looked after.
S.
andy97 said:
Matt, 900 members can't all be wrong and CSCC takes it as a compliment that both MSVR and 750 have copied a format successfully established in club racing 10 years ago. Note even the 750 Comps Manager races with us!
Hi Andy, indeed I do, and will hopefully be out this year, but thats only because the nature of the job prevents me racing with the 750MC Edited by andy97 on Sunday 10th March 19:57
Seriously as someone who raced an RX7 for several years, the engines are a joy. Yes they wear out after 60-80,000 miles on the road, but as a race engine they are great (apart from the noise!) I ran the same well built engine for over 2 seasons, including two 24 Hour Races without a rebuild. The Formula Women cars were also adapted for endurance racing and a team of them competed very succesfully at the Britcar 24 Hour Race back in 2005.
There was also a championship in Italy for racing RX8's that ran from 2004 to 2006, with a race version developed by Astra Racing.
I'm interested in running an RX8 next year, and will certainly keep an eye on the series this year and might try and take a round or two in.
The interesting point being the cars with knackered engines are 500 quid or less...so off setting selling interior etc with fitting a cage,electric etc could have a car minus engine for 2k....what's the typical engine re build cost?
Must say they are a lovely predictable car to drive, granted without the speed of other stuff I've raced but Im guessing far cheaper which certainly appeals
The interesting point being the cars with knackered engines are 500 quid or less...so off setting selling interior etc with fitting a cage,electric etc could have a car minus engine for 2k....what's the typical engine re build cost?
Must say they are a lovely predictable car to drive, granted without the speed of other stuff I've raced but Im guessing far cheaper which certainly appeals
stacy said:
If you can make a rotary go bang without forced induction assistance you are doing very well. They tend more to lose power rather than fail.
I say again - I ran for years with practically zero issues with good engines from WGT in Cheshire. And I mean racing, testing, and winning in multiple series over a year without missing a beat. At the end of the year it's an afternoon to tear down and re-seal.
So.. ahem.. Evidence please..?
S.
Hello, 4 dead RX-8 engines here. Both series one and series two engines. Varying between severe power loss to complete power loss and none start. The last one also a complete rebuild from Cheshire that did 200 miles before completely dying.I say again - I ran for years with practically zero issues with good engines from WGT in Cheshire. And I mean racing, testing, and winning in multiple series over a year without missing a beat. At the end of the year it's an afternoon to tear down and re-seal.
So.. ahem.. Evidence please..?
S.
Do I think you can make them relatively reliable?
Yes, but you need to throw a fair bit of money into them to start with to do it.
Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 13th March 21:29
Count Johnny said:
I haven't got a clue what you're going on about - so no change there then - but you're definitely feeling better.
WGFTGIGFTG .........
If only just for the hell of it, I just couldn't resist alluding to rewarding such a very rare appearance from Giles with a forum ban! Because >
a) Well we know why and
b) The BS Boys don't seem to have one at all on 750MC's much better looking newly launched website.
PhillipM said:
Hello, 4 dead RX-8 engines here. Both series one and series two engines. Varying between severe power loss to complete power loss and none start. The last one also a complete rebuild from Cheshire that did 200 miles before completely dying.
Do I think you can make them relatively reliable?
Yes, but you need to throw a fair bit of money into them to start with to do it.
You've seemingly succeeded with pretty much all the rotary engines you've ever come into contact with to have achieved what I haven't managed once in 13 years of racing a rotary.. I wasn't sure whether to reply, or just give you a round of applause. Do I think you can make them relatively reliable?
Yes, but you need to throw a fair bit of money into them to start with to do it.
Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 13th March 21:29
The only safe observation I can make is that even if we assume you are correct and that in a race car the rotary is indeed horrendously unreliable, your experience has been, shall we say, below the statistical average. So there does sadly appear to be a common denominator that doesn't contain a trochoid..
Obviously we don't know what went into your engines when built, what you did with them or what maintenance they enjoyed so it's impossible to get far beneath the headlines.
I guess it doesn't really matter - but I'd make the point that I have raced both piston and rotary engines. I wouldn't try and hang 10k on a standard rotary engine for hours a day any more than a standard piston engine. The latter wants steel rods, crank, pistons, springs et al. The rotary on the other hand needs some good tip and corner seals, a good balancing, and the rest can be largely stock. You would blueprint the components as you do with a piston engine, that's all. So to say you have to throw money at them is an absolute misnomer, I have yet to find a cheaper way of making the power.
Would be good to clear up one point though; Are you saying a WGT engine rebuilt for you failed after 200 miles? That seems to be your suggestion. I have had my differences with Pip in the past, but that doesn't sound like him - at all. Was it remediated and what was the cause? He does go online nowadays so I could point him to this link if you like? Alternatively you might want to tidy up your post to clarify. Better that than leave innuendo in the air.
All the best,
Phil Dicky said:
I'm interested in running an RX8 next year, and will certainly keep an eye on the series this year and might try and take a round or two in.
The interesting point being the cars with knackered engines are 500 quid or less...so off setting selling interior etc with fitting a cage,electric etc could have a car minus engine for 2k....what's the typical engine re build cost?
Must say they are a lovely predictable car to drive, granted without the speed of other stuff I've raced but Im guessing far cheaper which certainly appeals
A typical engine rebuild cost isn't a straightforward answer I'm afraid.The interesting point being the cars with knackered engines are 500 quid or less...so off setting selling interior etc with fitting a cage,electric etc could have a car minus engine for 2k....what's the typical engine re build cost?
Must say they are a lovely predictable car to drive, granted without the speed of other stuff I've raced but Im guessing far cheaper which certainly appeals
The variable is what you're starting with. For example the plates may be worn and may need a lapping (everything needs to be arrow straight to help the side seals seal), you'll want a seal kit come what may, but you might get away with bearings.
Here's a link to Atkins Rotary which is where most of my gear comes from, you'll see the different options for parts cost;
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=5
If you're not self sufficient in the UK then I would talk to;
1. Gary @ Rotechnics - He's never put together an engine for me, but the series is his baby so I have to put him top!
2. WGT in Cheshire - It won't be cheap, but it will be an end to end job and they have a dyno on site as well so you know exactly what it is you've bought.
3. oldones.co.uk - Era does porting and assembly mainly for older rotary cars and for the drag boys. He does /get it/ when it comes to competition - everything is clean and exacting. A good guy, and as he works out of a little unit in Winchester he's not dear.
Both proven, both good.
I'd call them and see what they say.
S.
stacy said:
Would be good to clear up one point though; Are you saying a WGT engine rebuilt for you failed after 200 miles? That seems to be your suggestion. I have had my differences with Pip in the past, but that doesn't sound like him - at all. Was it remediated and what was the cause? He does go online nowadays so I could point him to this link if you like? Alternatively you might want to tidy up your post to clarify. Better that than leave innuendo in the air.
Pip rebuilt the motor for us but it put us out for a season, but that's neither here nor there, we sorted this out between us, and that's that. What I am saying, is don't expect a stock '8 motor to last in a race series without a fair chunk of work put into it to start with, even without chasing extra power.Edited by PhillipM on Friday 15th March 17:29
andy97 said:
Stacy, as one of the most experienced rotary racers there is in the UK why not give this series a go - Track Car Magazine could have its own "celebrity"/ Project car????
Would be great to see, especially if a car can be built for 8K like the blurb about the series suggests.
Hi,Would be great to see, especially if a car can be built for 8K like the blurb about the series suggests.
"Experienced"? Always dreaded Autosport calling you a "veteran" or "stalwart". You knew it was over then. "Racer" was OK, but you always quietly hoped for "Ace"..
I'm not familiar with Track Car Magazine, but if it's something akin to TrackDriver magazine I'd say that was a good idea. The organizers have been in touch with Mark regarding the magazine driving the car, but don't believe it's moved further on that that as yet.
I'll be racing the RX7 Thunder Saloon in CSCC Special Saloons because that's a series that deserves support, and I'll be filling in with other events as and when we can. With other commitments and one pair of hands that's me out of the equation for taking on anything else.
For what it's worth I think 8k would be steep. For this to work it'll need to be a comparable cost to Compact Cup, and from memory that was nearer 4-5k for a going concern. Doable if you do it yourself.
S.
PhillipM said:
Pip rebuilt the motor for us but it put us out for a season, but that's neither here nor there, we sorted this out between us, and that's that. What I am saying, is don't expect a stock '8 motor to last in a race series without a fair chunk of work put into it to start with, even without chasing extra power.
Hi,Edited by PhillipM on Friday 15th March 17:29
Well, between you, Pip, and everyone who reads the forum anyway.
I would agree with you. Running a stock road car engine as a race car is a fools errand in the main - regardless of engine design.
We are talking here of engines which are already in build however. Is there anything other than that to which I have earlier alluded that you would suggest is done to them to make them race ready?
The only thing that were we doing slightly different I supppose, was we spent a fair amount of time setting the injection angles in the mapping to fire fuel and premix in, as the sideseals passed the ports, to attempt to help cool the seals and springs - that's always what we struggled with, apex seals and housings were always good, but we really struggled with side seal/iron wear - Pip should have our map for that somewhere if you want the angles and settings, or email me and I'll dig them out, plus plenty of overrun fuelling for additional cooling and lubrication when the throttle was shut.
We tried some high-temperature rated stainless side seal springs in one motor as some of the endurance guys experience some loss of preload over time, which we had a little of on the first motor, but none since altering the map, so hopefully that was doing it's job (or we weren't having the issue to the same extend due to the difference in operating conditions)
Although we didn't suffer the usual temperature issues, or bearing/stationary gear wear as many seem to struggle with, we never got on top of the side seal wear through the engines, hence having the motor completely rebuilt and mapped the last time by someone else to rule out something we were doing ourselves, with the failure of that one, we pretty much called time due to empty wallets and stuck the entire shebang up for sale.
However, if I were building one again, the first thing I'd be budgeting for is some ceramic side seals or similar. Maybe it's something both we and Pip missed, but they certainly seem to take a rapid beating in race use.
If there was enough money going into it, I'd have the side irons hardened much deeper than they are in the stock '8 too, and then ground back flat, the nitride layer seems to be much thinner than earlier rotaries.
edit: While I'm at it, I don't know if you're changing them anyway, but there's a fair bit of restriction/pressure drop in the standard oil cooler setup.
We tried some high-temperature rated stainless side seal springs in one motor as some of the endurance guys experience some loss of preload over time, which we had a little of on the first motor, but none since altering the map, so hopefully that was doing it's job (or we weren't having the issue to the same extend due to the difference in operating conditions)
Although we didn't suffer the usual temperature issues, or bearing/stationary gear wear as many seem to struggle with, we never got on top of the side seal wear through the engines, hence having the motor completely rebuilt and mapped the last time by someone else to rule out something we were doing ourselves, with the failure of that one, we pretty much called time due to empty wallets and stuck the entire shebang up for sale.
However, if I were building one again, the first thing I'd be budgeting for is some ceramic side seals or similar. Maybe it's something both we and Pip missed, but they certainly seem to take a rapid beating in race use.
If there was enough money going into it, I'd have the side irons hardened much deeper than they are in the stock '8 too, and then ground back flat, the nitride layer seems to be much thinner than earlier rotaries.
edit: While I'm at it, I don't know if you're changing them anyway, but there's a fair bit of restriction/pressure drop in the standard oil cooler setup.
Edited by PhillipM on Friday 15th March 18:46
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