No wheels off...
Discussion
bmwguy said:
I have re-read the old rule and the new one. The old one stated that "the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not..." In the new rule the words "but the kerbs are not" have been deleted. Clearly the kerbs are now part of the track and drivers can use as much of them as they like!
BUT....kerbs are not defined anywhere in the Blue Book that I can find. Do they have to be raised? Do they have to be painted? .....or is any strip of concrete or tarmac which happens to lie outside the white line a kerb? Is grasscrete a kerb? If so, Old Hall at Oulton Park suddenly got a lot quicker!!!
yes, is "grass-crete" a curb? re exit of old hall and cascades at oulton, graham hill at brands and old hairpin at donny. i suspect if there is any doubt they will quickly be removed and we will have just plain old grassBUT....kerbs are not defined anywhere in the Blue Book that I can find. Do they have to be raised? Do they have to be painted? .....or is any strip of concrete or tarmac which happens to lie outside the white line a kerb? Is grasscrete a kerb? If so, Old Hall at Oulton Park suddenly got a lot quicker!!!
wildman0609 said:
yes, is "grass-crete" a curb? re exit of old hall and cascades at oulton, graham hill at brands and old hairpin at donny. i suspect if there is any doubt they will quickly be removed and we will have just plain old grass
From my pov as a marshal (and potential judge of fact) a curb is the stripey painted, usually raised, sausage, saw tooth or whatever shaped device which lines the apex, entrance or exit of a corner (i.e. wherever the edge of the track is likely to be crossed regularly).Grasscrete is what the name suggests - grass, and definately not part of the track. Never has been and will not be under whatever form of words is used to define the track limits.
Kim
eta If none of the above broad descriptions of a curb are present, the track limit will be defined by the white line - so yes Old Hall for instance will be a lot slower for many - and somewhere you can guarantee that a judge of fact will be stationed to catch out every 'one wheel off' incident.
So that'll be everyone then!!
Edited by kimducati on Tuesday 27th August 08:12
Graham said:
its almost as daft as twice off the circuit or spin and black and white flag, 3 times and as visit to coc..
The black & white is normally shown after the third transgression. Repeatedly going off the track or spinning indicates a lack of car control, which makes you a potential danger to yourself & other competitors.This revision is bizarre.
Yes it's something that needs to be defined properly - but why go against the FIA guideline/rules - which is what we've driven to here in the UK - 2 wheels off OK - 4 wheels no.
Take Brand Hatch - Paddock Hill, you use as much as the exit as possible. Graham Hill - again 2 wheels and as much as you can get away with. If this rule is applied, then I can see a lot of problems/accidents happening whilst people try and adjust.
Yes it's something that needs to be defined properly - but why go against the FIA guideline/rules - which is what we've driven to here in the UK - 2 wheels off OK - 4 wheels no.
Take Brand Hatch - Paddock Hill, you use as much as the exit as possible. Graham Hill - again 2 wheels and as much as you can get away with. If this rule is applied, then I can see a lot of problems/accidents happening whilst people try and adjust.
Two people were hauled up for this in the Castle Combe Saloons yesterday - heard first hand from one of the two drivers involved. It was news to me until that happened, so I guess it's in the circuit racing section, not in Section J or S. Isn't half the fun of spectating to see a car kiss the rumble strips or kick up a bit of dirt? BTCC were 4 wheels off on every lap from what I saw...
I feel it to be more of a problem of granularity. At the moment in the Radicals where I race, getting 4 wheels off is keenly watched and reported to the CoC, but by and large its a fairly easy limit to manage. IE you can reasonably easily keep to the rules.
But with the proposed new ruling it's a much smaller margin or error - getting a wheel just over the line. It feels very pernickety. Also where the kerb ends and the white line takes over is a step change (IYSMIM) - the circut limit instantly moves a kerb's width to one side!
On the subject of current enforcement, the blue book (Q.14) is quite generic. We (in the Rads) seem to run with some much more specific penalties - I wonder where they are defined?
Bert
But with the proposed new ruling it's a much smaller margin or error - getting a wheel just over the line. It feels very pernickety. Also where the kerb ends and the white line takes over is a step change (IYSMIM) - the circut limit instantly moves a kerb's width to one side!
On the subject of current enforcement, the blue book (Q.14) is quite generic. We (in the Rads) seem to run with some much more specific penalties - I wonder where they are defined?
Bert
Dave Brand said:
The black & white is normally shown after the third transgression. Repeatedly going off the track or spinning indicates a lack of car control, which makes you a potential danger to yourself & other competitors.
the current coc guidance is twice flag, 3rd time visit to coc..I've never had a black and white in 12 years of racing, 2 so for this year !!!!
I dont have a testing budget this year so will push to find the limits in qually, I'll also let a car run rather than trying to fight it back on the track in qually as going a little wide rather than spinning into the pit wall is preferable !!!
5 wins out of 6 races so far, might suggest I at least have an idea what im supposed to be doing :-)
I did go and see the clerk to discuss ( wasnt called) and he agreed there wasnt a problem but the guidance was now to issue a flag regardless. the other occasion was the track going from dry and sunny to torrential rain and hail whilst in the holding area for qually. sat on brand new slicks and a dry setup saw 2 spins as I aquaplaned my way back to the pits.. bolted a set of wets on stuck it on pole and won the wet race.. and about the only person in the race not to spin of go off lol...
I dont have a problem with the idea, and you can tell very easily is someone is driving beyond their ability, its just the blanket enforcement..removing the discretion of the coc...
This is definitely going to make racing more dangerous. All of us can imagine several corners and situations where it would be better to let the car run out onto the grasscrete than to desperately try and keep the outer wheels on the kerbs. To my mind that is the very reason why they put the blasted grasscrete there in the first place. Not good.
NJH said:
This is definitely going to make racing more dangerous. All of us can imagine several corners and situations where it would be better to let the car run out onto the grasscrete than to desperately try and keep the outer wheels on the kerbs. To my mind that is the very reason why they put the blasted grasscrete there in the first place. Not good.
exactly there is a big difference in constantly running wide to gain an advantage, and going in a bit hot and running wide..I fear this rule coupled with more use of driving standards flags and chats with the coc will lead to more incidents especially with novice drivers as they try and fight an unbalanced car back on the circuit and hit something hard with the inevitable spin.
kimducati said:
From my pov as a marshal (and potential judge of fact) a curb is the stripey painted, usually raised, sausage, saw tooth or whatever shaped device which lines the apex, entrance or exit of a corner (i.e. wherever the edge of the track is likely to be crossed regularly).
Grasscrete is what the name suggests - grass, and definately not part of the track. Never has been and will not be under whatever form of words is used to define the track limits.
Kim
eta If none of the above broad descriptions of a curb are present, the track limit will be defined by the white line - so yes Old Hall for instance will be a lot slower for many - and somewhere you can guarantee that a judge of fact will be stationed to catch out every 'one wheel off' incident.
So that'll be everyone then!!
Apparently it's the marshalls who will decide what is or isn't a kerb. Obviously thats why a definition isn't needed in the Blue Book!Grasscrete is what the name suggests - grass, and definately not part of the track. Never has been and will not be under whatever form of words is used to define the track limits.
Kim
eta If none of the above broad descriptions of a curb are present, the track limit will be defined by the white line - so yes Old Hall for instance will be a lot slower for many - and somewhere you can guarantee that a judge of fact will be stationed to catch out every 'one wheel off' incident.
So that'll be everyone then!!
Edited by kimducati on Tuesday 27th August 08:12
bmwguy said:
Apparently it's the marshalls who will decide what is or isn't a kerb. Obviously thats why a definition isn't needed in the Blue Book!
No need to get sarkey!!
Marshals don't decide what is or isn't a curb, that is tbh pretty obvious to anyone.
We will, however on occasion be asked to judge who has or hasn't exceeded track limits. For the purposes of this discussion that means as of today 4 wheels off, and as of next year 1 wheel off, unless your series regs or c of c on the day decide differently.
Kim.
and btw I think curbs ARE defined in the blue book, its only the PH warriors who questioned whether the grasscrete runoffs were a curb - clearly, by any definition they are not.
kimducati said:
and btw I think curbs ARE defined in the blue book, its only the PH warriors who questioned whether the grasscrete runoffs were a curb - clearly, by any definition they are not.
Well, can you point me to the appropriate bit of the blue book where kerbs are defined? I agree with you that grasscrete is unlikely ever to be considered a kerb, and nor should it be....but that is why its important that what actually is a kerb is clearly defined, particularly since the new wording now includes a kerb as part of the track when it never has been before. bmwguy said:
Well, can you point me to the appropriate bit of the blue book where kerbs are defined? I agree with you that grasscrete is unlikely ever to be considered a kerb, and nor should it be....but that is why its important that what actually is a kerb is clearly defined, particularly since the new wording now includes a kerb as part of the track when it never has been before.
You're right, doesn't seem to appear in the blue book. I must have seen the diagrams in the FIA regs here:http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/...
I think that, as I said earlier, the kerb will be clearly defined (on the track) by being painted and to a greater or lesser extent, raised above the level of the track.
That won't be the problem. The problem will be enforcement and the ability of 'judges of fact' to actually and accurately see whats going on.
Kim
I'm curous about stuff like the green painted concrete beyond the red/white bits. They're painted, they're raised (as often as red/white are, which themselves aren't always raised). What about the unpainted 'kerbs' that are actually just a row of spaced bricks (Anglesey? Oulton?)? They aren't raised or painted, but are very clearly kerbs.
The inside/outside definition seems straightforward to me. I read it as relative to the centreline of the track, so the outside edge of a kerb is that which is furthest from the centreline. But I can also see that some people will use the inside and outside of the corner, and hence the outside of an apex kerb is the white line of the track....
Not against the new rule at all (although it would be nice if the role models in BTCC or F1 had to obey the same rules, to show that it can be done!), but the MSA do need to clarify and define what a kerb is, which is the inside and which is the outside edge.
The inside/outside definition seems straightforward to me. I read it as relative to the centreline of the track, so the outside edge of a kerb is that which is furthest from the centreline. But I can also see that some people will use the inside and outside of the corner, and hence the outside of an apex kerb is the white line of the track....
Not against the new rule at all (although it would be nice if the role models in BTCC or F1 had to obey the same rules, to show that it can be done!), but the MSA do need to clarify and define what a kerb is, which is the inside and which is the outside edge.
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff