No wheels off...

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

It was down to the drivers skill to find the fastest way around without cheating by "corner cutting".

FAOD I'm not being argumentative, but am intellectually interested in precise interpretation of the rules. Where in the regs does it define what isn't allowed with regard to corner cutting and is thus "cheating"?
Bert

[BertBert]

pistolp said:

More to the point I feel the existing rule works well, that's why all the other countries and global formula use it too!

And that's where I'm at. What is the benefit of the new rule?

[BertBert]

BaronVonVaderham said:

More wins for J. Palmer Jr in his GP2 campaign due to an increased budget?

I can't convince myself that that is the real reason!

[BertBert]

Munter said:

Now an observer on the outside of the corner has direct line of sight to the outside wheel, and circuit edge.

That is true, but as the car will be over the white line, it'll be hard to see if the inside of the wheel has left the white line (if that makes sense?).
Bert

[BertBert]

Just thought I'd take a look at a lap and see what difference it makes. Came across this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBk6Z1KyJUY&fea...

So looks like to me, three places that will be illegal in 2014.
-12 seconds in - too much exit curb
-27 seconds in - too much exit curb
-61 seconds in - too much LH curb in the chicane (marginal)

So in practice it won't make a huge difference to that bloke's driving of Donington next year. I reckon it'll be hard to make the right judgement though of those places off from the outside.
BErt

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

And for years the kerbing has been a no go area! MSA Backpedaling?

I have struggled so far to understand your point of view, but I think I have got it. I hope you don't mind me playing back what I think...

You think that driving outside of the white line is poor driving standards and cheating.

I think that using the rules to their limit is good driving standards. Also this year the rules seem to have been enforced reasonably well.

You think the new rules should be there to improve driving standards, stop cheating and keep people between the white lines. You are saddened that the new rules don't do this as they include the use of kerbs over the white lines which must be the product of Muppet drafting rather than the intent of the rule makers.

I think they are just new rules that provide no benefit to anyone and I hope that driving standards will remain high as people exploit the new rules to their fullest extent.

Is that a fair summary of our different perspectives?

Bert

[BertBert]

pistolp said:

Yes I must say I too am surprised at how passionately against the use of curbs some people clearly are, or even going two wheels beyond the curb for that matter. I can't see why it's upsetting when nearly all drivers do it and its been that way for decades.

And allowed in the rule!

[BertBert]

pistolp said:

Oh and another thing, I challenge you to a time trial at any circuit in the UK. No curbs. I'll still beat you. It'll just be less fun doing it. I'll supply a car, you cover your costs and entry. Then we will see who has what skill level.

Hehe what fun! A ginetta?
Bert

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

As said early in this thread,its the nonsensical wording from the MSA

I presume by that you mean that their wording doesn't mean what you think it should mean rather than it's hard to understand?
Bert

[BertBert]

Hehe, what a fun debate! I think the ruling is very simple unless I have super-advanced levels of comprehension. The ruling says:

Drivers must use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. For the avoidance of doubt:
(a) The white line defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track.
(b) A driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel either goes beyond the outer edge of any kerb or goes beyond the white line where there is no kerb.

That seems very very simple, not drafted by a muppet. Do not go beyond the edge of the kerb or over the white line where there is no kerb.

Or have I missed something more complex or devious?
BB

[BertBert]

moosehead said:

Interesting watching F1 practice today at Suzuka. Perez goes off into wall having gone over white line onto astro turf on entry to corner. Commentators, including ex drivers blame circuit for putting a/turf in silly place and comment that drivers should 'complain' in next drivers briefing.

Yes, I know its F1 and not under MSA rules but I think its relevent - no-one mentioned Perez should stay within track limits.

It's an interesting philosophical question about safety which we've had threads on before - there was that one regarding Combe some while back. I think it's better that mistakes aren't punished by big offs.
Bert

[BertBert]

If the link works, here's some helpful driving from Lewis showing us how to comply with both this year's and next year's MSA rules! Assuming the link works...

[BertBert]

NJH said:

They didn't get penalised on the grounds that an advantage wasn't made i.e. the car had to travel further as a result of going 4 wheels off.

Interesting, but that's not how you tell whether an advantage has been gained surely? You'd have to look at the time-slip in the data to compare laps on the two lines. Just because the distance is longer doesn't mean no advantage. Otherwise the fastest way around a circuit would always be the shortest!
Bert

[BertBert]

Nope I don't buy that at all. The idea that f1 Fia officials have the wool pulled over their eyes in that way is complete nonsense. Being able to tell whether a particular line is faster from the data is race craft 101. Even I can do it.
Bert

[BertBert]

I agree, but to suggest it's down to the drivers outfoxing the officials is daft. Need another reason.
Bert

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

Would suggest a look at the tube.Senna at Donington 1993,a driver who is obviously trying NOT to use the kerbing/white line. Obviously not a knob,was he?

Do you mean the wet race?
Bert

[BertBert]

I presume it was a trick question from Terence!

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

No,totally dry-otherwise it wouldn't have been suggested;]

Do you have a link so we can be looking at the same thing?

[BertBert]

terenceb said:

Grow a pair? Really dont think I need to!
try Ayrton Senna's Greatest Lap -Donington 1993. Have no idea on the link thing I'm afraid.But if the master didn't need to do it,and still be bloody quick,it must cast some doubt on present day driver skills?dNo more excuse's of "I cant drive fast without using the kerbs",learn how to!

Well oh big-balls, perhaps you'd like to be more specific? The so called greatest lap is normally attributed to the start of the GP where he overtook 5 cars in torrential conditions to take the lead.

Or maybe you are referring to another part of the race? Or perhaps quali where he came fourth half a second off the pace?

Bert

[BertBert]

woof said:

In an offline conversation with the BRSCC - they have approached the MSA for clarification and the MSA will apparently be releasing an updated wording for this new ruling

I wonder what the clarification will be about? It's not a very complex rule. Unless they are going to clarify what a kerb is?
Bert