No wheels off...
Discussion
Scuffers said:
as with most MSA stuff, you have to ask why?
We all know why..... JP!!!I'm not totally against the new ruling as long as it is clearly defined and consistently enforced. People have been taking the piss a bit with track limits over the past few years. I'm sure its mainly due to the example set by the BTCC and the like.
Dan
A kerb (or a curb) is not defined in the Blue Book in Section B (Nomenclature and Definitions). Google defines it as:
[url=https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3Akerb]kerb
Web definitions
curb: an edge between a sidewalk and a roadway consisting of a line of curbstones (usually forming part of a gutter).
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/url]
Given that there's no pavement on a race track, do kerbs even exist? The Oxford English Dictionary agrees but cites a curb as something that might be more appropriate to describe the edging of a track. On the basis of the spelling used in the MSA regs and the definition by the OED, I'd say that there are no kerbs on a purpose-made race track and thus the no wheels off rule always applies to the white line. Being more reasonable, I don't think this is what the MSA intended to write.
[url=https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3Akerb]kerb
Web definitions
curb: an edge between a sidewalk and a roadway consisting of a line of curbstones (usually forming part of a gutter).
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/url]
Given that there's no pavement on a race track, do kerbs even exist? The Oxford English Dictionary agrees but cites a curb as something that might be more appropriate to describe the edging of a track. On the basis of the spelling used in the MSA regs and the definition by the OED, I'd say that there are no kerbs on a purpose-made race track and thus the no wheels off rule always applies to the white line. Being more reasonable, I don't think this is what the MSA intended to write.
Graham said:
the current coc guidance is twice flag, 3rd time visit to coc..
You surprise me - is that specific to your championship? As far as I know it's three before the "naughty boy" flag is shown; if I get the chance I'll check with a Clerk on Saturday.As for the new rules, while the tightening up of the limits will potentially mean more drivers are being reported it will be easier to judge. That in itself will probably generate more reports, as if there is any doubt it should not be reported . . . a lot of "three & a half wheels off" under the current rules.
Give it a couple of seasons & the fuss will die down. The current rules caused a flurry of activity when they were first introduced, but, subjectively, I would say that the number of occurrences of "four wheels off" has drastically reduced.
Dave Brand said:
Give it a couple of seasons & the fuss will die down. The current rules caused a flurry of activity when they were first introduced, but, subjectively, I would say that the number of occurrences of "four wheels off" has drastically reduced.
not sure you can make that comparison.the old rules were very much thought though will little room to 'interpret' them
these new rules are relying on something that's not currently defined - ie, it's going to be up for argument.
Dave Brand said:
but, subjectively, I would say that the number of occurrences of "four wheels off" has drastically reduced.
Which means the current rules are working, so there is no need to bring new ones in.Scuffers said:
these new rules are relying on something that's not currently defined - ie, it's going to be up for argument.
I don't see that actually as a practical problem. I think where the kerbs/curbs are is pretty clear. I actually think that 4 wheels off is easy to identify and report. I think one wheel off is *much* more marginal. I'm sure it'll be fine, I just don't know what the benefit is.BTW does anyone know what the F1/FIA rules are regarding track limits? Just out of interest.
Bert
Dave Brand said:
You surprise me - is that specific to your championship? As far as I know it's three before the "naughty boy" flag is shown; if I get the chance I'll check with a Clerk on Saturday.
I think we've been talking at cross purposes here! I was generalising, you were referring specifically to breaching track limits during a race (edit: & I was unaware of the change to two!), I was including spins, etc., in both practice & racing. As far as I know the black & white will still be shown after three offences other than in the specific circumstances you're quoting . . . or maybe not!Edited by Dave Brand on Wednesday 28th August 18:26
BertBert said:
BTW does anyone know what the F1/FIA rules are regarding track limits? Just out of interest.
Bert
I *believe* they are the same as the old MSA rule, i.e. 4WO counts as off the track, the track is the bit between the white lines but not the kerbs.Bert
20.2 seems to cover it:
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regula...
yes, looks the same as the current MSA definition for the track limits. Interesting that the MSA rule changes have a "reason". Because the change to the circuit limits ruling is lumped in with the defending position ruling, the "reason" given by the MSA for the change is to bring it in-line with the FIA rules. Nicely disingenious!
BErt
BErt
The original wording put out to consultation in 2012 was different.
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/regulations/Rac...
I wonder why they didn't go with that version?
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/regulations/Rac...
I wonder why they didn't go with that version?
BertBert said:
yes, looks the same as the current MSA definition for the track limits. Interesting that the MSA rule changes have a "reason". Because the change to the circuit limits ruling is lumped in with the defending position ruling, the "reason" given by the MSA for the change is to bring it in-line with the FIA rules. Nicely disingenious!
BErt
The double move rule and not giving someone a car width is a good rule - difficult to apply of course but still. BErt
So is the real reason for this no wheels off purely because of Palmer not wanting his circuits messed up ?
That's the real reason if you ask me. It is an expense issue of circuit upkeep.
Such a shame, the new rule is ok and manageable. I lost a race win at brands the other day because of track limits, in Caterhams. Although I was excluded for a technical issue later anyway. I have noticed some championships and clubs are more fastidious in their enforcement.
I race on the BTCC support package as well and they are much more 'grown up' over it. You only get done if you really do exceed the limits persistently. That is fair enough. I don't like to see people gain an advantage, although it is debatable that that is what is happening.
I do have an issue with this one wheel off rule. It is so much harder to judge for the driver. My car is G55 which is a relatively big GT, you are not that well sighted as a driver as it has a big long bonnet. Being one wheel slightly off will be really hard to avoid and with only 3 warnings before a penalty it does seem a bit needless? Corners that concern me are Graham Hill Bend (Brands) and Old Hall (Oulton). Perhaps McLeans (Donington) too as its over a crest. The MSA's argument and that of the rules supporter will be that we are not in control of our car if we can't adhere to the rule. I would ask, why should the UK adopt a rule that the rest of the world and specifically the FIA feel is unnecessary.
We should be free to drive without the constant fear of penalties and whether or not we have run wide by a few mm whilst at racing speeds. My big fear is the inconsistency from track to track and day to day. Championships can come down to one point, what if that one point is either earnt or lost over an issue such as this? Will that have added to our sport.
This is what happens when you have a Monopoly such as with MSV.
Such a shame, the new rule is ok and manageable. I lost a race win at brands the other day because of track limits, in Caterhams. Although I was excluded for a technical issue later anyway. I have noticed some championships and clubs are more fastidious in their enforcement.
I race on the BTCC support package as well and they are much more 'grown up' over it. You only get done if you really do exceed the limits persistently. That is fair enough. I don't like to see people gain an advantage, although it is debatable that that is what is happening.
I do have an issue with this one wheel off rule. It is so much harder to judge for the driver. My car is G55 which is a relatively big GT, you are not that well sighted as a driver as it has a big long bonnet. Being one wheel slightly off will be really hard to avoid and with only 3 warnings before a penalty it does seem a bit needless? Corners that concern me are Graham Hill Bend (Brands) and Old Hall (Oulton). Perhaps McLeans (Donington) too as its over a crest. The MSA's argument and that of the rules supporter will be that we are not in control of our car if we can't adhere to the rule. I would ask, why should the UK adopt a rule that the rest of the world and specifically the FIA feel is unnecessary.
We should be free to drive without the constant fear of penalties and whether or not we have run wide by a few mm whilst at racing speeds. My big fear is the inconsistency from track to track and day to day. Championships can come down to one point, what if that one point is either earnt or lost over an issue such as this? Will that have added to our sport.
This is what happens when you have a Monopoly such as with MSV.
pistolp said:
This is what happens when you have a Monopoly such as with MSV.
Some interesting comments here, I have three things to add.
For the record I race porsche cup car.
1: In principle I think the track limits are the black bit in between the white lines and the painted kerbs, and we should all try to keep within these limits. I know that we all push in races and we make mistakes and sometimes go outside these limits, fair enough, and the occasional transgression should not be punished.
But If there was no run off and the penalty for this was to hit a wall (like the last corner at rockingham) we would take care to make sure we don't over do it.
How many people hit that wall?
If there was a grasscreet runoff and no wall how many people would cross the line because they can without penalty.
With few exceptions most corners can be pushed way beyond the track limits and you can either get away with it or go faster.
Take cops at Silverstone, you can make a complete bugger of it and still not lose any time, or even gain an advantage.
The idea of circuit racing is to have a clearly defined circuit and see who can go around the fastest, not who can cut corners and gain an advantage.
2: Most circuits have safety as a high priority so we get bigger and bigger runoffs and the penalty for leaving the "circuit" is reduced.
I get this, as i pay for any damage myself i don't want to hit things if i make a small mistake. But i do think there should be some penalty for pushing too hard or just plain taking a short cut.
3: Having said all this the current rules would be sufficient in most cases if they where enforced on a regular and consistent basis.
I have been sat in many pre race briefings and its been a major topic with pictures and diagrams shown to emphasise the rule, we are told 4 wheels off will not be tolerated, but I have followed people who consistently go over the limit with no penalty.
How this new rule will be enforced is beyond me, if we cant even enforce the current rules this will become a joke, if some people push the limit and get away with it within 5 laps we will all have to do it just to keep up.
However if the old or new rule is applied and penalties are handed out consistently then we will quickly learn to stick to the rules if we want to win.
Or plan B.
If they really don't want us to go outside any white lines build walls on every corner, that will stop us using the grass.
For the record I race porsche cup car.
1: In principle I think the track limits are the black bit in between the white lines and the painted kerbs, and we should all try to keep within these limits. I know that we all push in races and we make mistakes and sometimes go outside these limits, fair enough, and the occasional transgression should not be punished.
But If there was no run off and the penalty for this was to hit a wall (like the last corner at rockingham) we would take care to make sure we don't over do it.
How many people hit that wall?
If there was a grasscreet runoff and no wall how many people would cross the line because they can without penalty.
With few exceptions most corners can be pushed way beyond the track limits and you can either get away with it or go faster.
Take cops at Silverstone, you can make a complete bugger of it and still not lose any time, or even gain an advantage.
The idea of circuit racing is to have a clearly defined circuit and see who can go around the fastest, not who can cut corners and gain an advantage.
2: Most circuits have safety as a high priority so we get bigger and bigger runoffs and the penalty for leaving the "circuit" is reduced.
I get this, as i pay for any damage myself i don't want to hit things if i make a small mistake. But i do think there should be some penalty for pushing too hard or just plain taking a short cut.
3: Having said all this the current rules would be sufficient in most cases if they where enforced on a regular and consistent basis.
I have been sat in many pre race briefings and its been a major topic with pictures and diagrams shown to emphasise the rule, we are told 4 wheels off will not be tolerated, but I have followed people who consistently go over the limit with no penalty.
How this new rule will be enforced is beyond me, if we cant even enforce the current rules this will become a joke, if some people push the limit and get away with it within 5 laps we will all have to do it just to keep up.
However if the old or new rule is applied and penalties are handed out consistently then we will quickly learn to stick to the rules if we want to win.
Or plan B.
If they really don't want us to go outside any white lines build walls on every corner, that will stop us using the grass.
chrisb0 said:
If they really don't want us to go outside any white lines build walls on every corner, that will stop us using the grass.
I strongly object to the creation of additional dangers and I'm sure you didn't mean your comment literally. I think the the 4 wheels off rule is perfectly adequate, gives the driver plenty of leeway and is easy to enforce. The new rule doesn't add anything at all. I don't buy the argument that track maintenance on commonly used areas for two wheels off is costly at all.Also we know how particular JP is about his kerbs. Surely if he had his way, kerbs would be off limits too!
Bert
Of cause i don't mean it literally, but i do think there should be some form of penalty for leaving the circuit as defined in the rules (old or new) that is enforced.
As i said circuit racing is racing round a defined circuit and using your skill to get round the quickest.
If the result for taking a short cut is to go faster with no penalty then thats not skill in my book.
The real skill is going quick within the rules.
In days gone by if a mistake was made you hit a tree and that was it. Not suggesting we plant trees on corners.
As i said circuit racing is racing round a defined circuit and using your skill to get round the quickest.
If the result for taking a short cut is to go faster with no penalty then thats not skill in my book.
The real skill is going quick within the rules.
In days gone by if a mistake was made you hit a tree and that was it. Not suggesting we plant trees on corners.
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