No wheels off...
Discussion
Hi Dave, yes I do listen and you made your points about rider safety earlier on. They are good points and I have no direct experience on a bike. If that was JPs reasoning that's good!
In terms of my view, you have mis-understood what I think. I am firmly in favour of the rules being enforced and drivers intending to drive to them. You will have noticed me harping on about my direct experience in Radicals where last year there was a big focus on track limits. I think that worked well. Even I got a warning flag. Imagine that!
My argument is that that is what was needed. I might even have supported pressure pads and cameras, although I don't actually think that's sensible (as I have said before).
It's a common modern thought failure that says that when rules are not enforced the solution is to make the rules stricter. Too much drink-driving? Make the limit lower! Daft or what?
Bert
In terms of my view, you have mis-understood what I think. I am firmly in favour of the rules being enforced and drivers intending to drive to them. You will have noticed me harping on about my direct experience in Radicals where last year there was a big focus on track limits. I think that worked well. Even I got a warning flag. Imagine that!
My argument is that that is what was needed. I might even have supported pressure pads and cameras, although I don't actually think that's sensible (as I have said before).
It's a common modern thought failure that says that when rules are not enforced the solution is to make the rules stricter. Too much drink-driving? Make the limit lower! Daft or what?
Bert
Bert are you getting confused again think its the first time Dave has joined the discussion ? I think Dave has made some excellent points reinforcing that the ruling came about for other reasons than the cost of grass seed, more that the safety of all users was at risk under the old rules. Of course cost of maintenance is an issue, but an issue not the only one and yes when you own several busy circuits a major cost, so no wonder its on JP`s mind as he must see it as pouring water down a drain, money i`m sure he would rather spend investing in better facilities for competitors and spectators.
Grass erosion and soil compaction are not issues that can be rectified immediately they take time to settle and establish , there are quick fixes but they are temporary solutions which are just that such as filling ruts which form with soil but unless driver behaviour is changed they never get established and we are back to square one. Hopefully the new rule changes will mean that running wide (any wheels) becomes something that is occasional not the norm, as it sadly has become in too many series and we will see the benefit for all in safer circuits and less vehicle damage.
Grass erosion and soil compaction are not issues that can be rectified immediately they take time to settle and establish , there are quick fixes but they are temporary solutions which are just that such as filling ruts which form with soil but unless driver behaviour is changed they never get established and we are back to square one. Hopefully the new rule changes will mean that running wide (any wheels) becomes something that is occasional not the norm, as it sadly has become in too many series and we will see the benefit for all in safer circuits and less vehicle damage.
Thanks for the reasonable response Bert.
I do also agree that whatever rules you have do need to be enforced in order to have the desired effect. I think the installation of the electronic system at Brands Hatch was the over-reaction of a circuit owner who was exasperated with the lack of enforcement of the rules.
I have been in charge at many circuits during car meetings where the officials interpretation and enforcement of rules has varied wildly from one race to the next. Less experienced officials often err on the side of caution, thinking that it will be easier that way - when in fact the reverse is true (as most experienced officials know).
I honestly think that a suitable balance will be achieved over the course of this season and some of the credit for that will have to go to JP for polarising the issue (whether you/we agree with it or not). The old racers excuse of "Touring Cars were doing exactly that last week and no one penalised them!" will be consigned to the bin now and that should make the work of the regular Clerks a lot easier.
I'll leave you to your debate now, I just wanted to add a view from the wider motorsport community. Drive safe - be happy.
I do also agree that whatever rules you have do need to be enforced in order to have the desired effect. I think the installation of the electronic system at Brands Hatch was the over-reaction of a circuit owner who was exasperated with the lack of enforcement of the rules.
I have been in charge at many circuits during car meetings where the officials interpretation and enforcement of rules has varied wildly from one race to the next. Less experienced officials often err on the side of caution, thinking that it will be easier that way - when in fact the reverse is true (as most experienced officials know).
I honestly think that a suitable balance will be achieved over the course of this season and some of the credit for that will have to go to JP for polarising the issue (whether you/we agree with it or not). The old racers excuse of "Touring Cars were doing exactly that last week and no one penalised them!" will be consigned to the bin now and that should make the work of the regular Clerks a lot easier.
I'll leave you to your debate now, I just wanted to add a view from the wider motorsport community. Drive safe - be happy.
Let's step back from this for a moment.
Why is it only at MSV circuits that these pressure plates are being installed.
Why is it that only at MSV circuits that these rules are being enforced to this level ?
Anyone that actually knows what JP is like would know he's OCD about the grass and landscaping at his circuits.
He owns them - so good for him if he likes having nice grass. I like grass as well.
He runs a very tight ship and a successful business and looks at every penny spent and where he can divert money to Joylon racing fund. (You'll see him in F1 next year) The deal he has with Comma at the circuits and sponsoring F4 - well all that money actually goes to the GP2/F1 fund. But I'm getting side tracked no pun intended
Anyone that thinks this is to do with racing standards is deluding themselves. JP said this was about money and he even said he would reduce track fees as he sees money being saved. Although he's actually spent £200k installing his pressure plate system. Basically don't hold your breathe for a rebate
Why is it only at MSV circuits that these pressure plates are being installed.
Why is it that only at MSV circuits that these rules are being enforced to this level ?
Anyone that actually knows what JP is like would know he's OCD about the grass and landscaping at his circuits.
He owns them - so good for him if he likes having nice grass. I like grass as well.
He runs a very tight ship and a successful business and looks at every penny spent and where he can divert money to Joylon racing fund. (You'll see him in F1 next year) The deal he has with Comma at the circuits and sponsoring F4 - well all that money actually goes to the GP2/F1 fund. But I'm getting side tracked no pun intended
Anyone that thinks this is to do with racing standards is deluding themselves. JP said this was about money and he even said he would reduce track fees as he sees money being saved. Although he's actually spent £200k installing his pressure plate system. Basically don't hold your breathe for a rebate
Edited by woof on Thursday 3rd April 11:31
BertBert said:
mad4amanda said:
Bert are you getting confused again think its the first time Dave has joined the discussion ?
Happens a lot when you get to 90! It must have been someone else making the safety for bikes point earlier unless I dreamt it!Cheers Dave, good to have your view and good to see your guys out at Brands last month, one of the better bike meetings so far this year, some great racing!
woof said:
Why is it only at MSV circuits that these pressure plates are being installed.
Why is it that only at MSV circuits that these rules are being enforced to this level ?
I'm testing at Silverstone tomorrow and racing there on Saturday, I was very surprised to get an email last week explaining the new rules and it even had some nice pictures, so I wasn't confused. I assume they don't have the pressure plates but it does seem that they will be enforcing the regs. Why is it that only at MSV circuits that these rules are being enforced to this level ?
I am not opposed to the new reg. But what I do oppose is, disparity and inconsistency in enforcing the regs across circuits and championships.
I've tested at Brands & Snet (got the print out) Donington (no regs or warning flags) and Croft shortly and it's not been highlighted at all.
BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
woof said:
I've tested at Brands & Snet (got the print out) Donington (no regs or warning flags) and Croft shortly and it's not been highlighted at all.
BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
Jeez, if you are using the Runoff at Copse you've got more to worry about than track limits ... BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
Maxx
Maxx said:
woof said:
I've tested at Brands & Snet (got the print out) Donington (no regs or warning flags) and Croft shortly and it's not been highlighted at all.
BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
Jeez, if you are using the Runoff at Copse you've got more to worry about than track limits ... BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
Maxx
Maxx said:
Jeez, if you are using the Runoff at Copse you've got more to worry about than track limits ...
Maxx
Testing this time last year at Silverstone with some clio cup cars. They were obviously having a competition to get fastest lap time regardless of the actual track! So the racing line at copse for them included the runoff tarmac the other side of the green bit at copse. They were also annoyingly cutting the corner at the entry to Luffield and putting a lot of muddy earth on the circuit.Maxx
I blame the circuit where was the enforcement of the rules?
Bert
woof said:
I've tested at Brands & Snet (got the print out) Donington (no regs or warning flags) and Croft shortly and it's not been highlighted at all.
BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
No notes from BRSCC but was included by Silverstone with testing info. See you there woof, just to add my 2 pennies to the debate, not really bothered by the new rules just want them consistently applied.BRSCC opening races are at Silverstone International this weekend and there's no notes about track limits but expect the usual warning about using the run off at Copse.
Safe racing everyone.
Regards,
Daz
BertBert said:
I blame the circuit where was the enforcement of the rules?
Bert
I've heard from a number of my instructor buddies that these 'new' rules are now being strictly enforced on track and test days. at least by MSV circuits. ANY transgessions and the culprits are being black flagged and I believe there has been at least one exclusion for consistently exceeding track limits.Bert
Maxx said:
BertBert said:
I blame the circuit where was the enforcement of the rules?
Bert
I've heard from a number of my instructor buddies that these 'new' rules are now being strictly enforced on track and test days. at least by MSV circuits. ANY transgessions and the culprits are being black flagged and I believe there has been at least one exclusion for consistently exceeding track limits.Bert
I would like to express my gratitude to the knowledgeable contributors to this thread, thanks to whom I now know that the "one wheel off" rule was unilaterally introduced by Dr Palmer, after consultation with Pluto, in the sole interest of preserving the grass at MSV circuits.
Silly me, thinking that the MSA Race Committee had anything to do with it, that it was an attempt to improve driving standards & that it applies at all MSA-licensed race meetings.
Silly me, thinking that the MSA Race Committee had anything to do with it, that it was an attempt to improve driving standards & that it applies at all MSA-licensed race meetings.
Glad you understand correctly
Interesting that every "top" driver I know and and all the respected commentators think it's a ridiculous rule. Even was mentioned during the GP2 race yesterday. And again Palmer himself said it was about the costs of replanting the grass
the only thing is that we're all in the same boat but we've already seeing inconsistencies and that's the issue I had with this rule from day one. It's unnecessary and has nothing to do with driving standards or safety.
I wish the MSA did take a closer look at track safety - see my Donington thread here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Interesting that every "top" driver I know and and all the respected commentators think it's a ridiculous rule. Even was mentioned during the GP2 race yesterday. And again Palmer himself said it was about the costs of replanting the grass
the only thing is that we're all in the same boat but we've already seeing inconsistencies and that's the issue I had with this rule from day one. It's unnecessary and has nothing to do with driving standards or safety.
I wish the MSA did take a closer look at track safety - see my Donington thread here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by woof on Sunday 6th April 13:27
Dave Brand said:
I would like to express my gratitude to the knowledgeable contributors to this thread, thanks to whom I now know that the "one wheel off" rule was unilaterally introduced by Dr Palmer, after consultation with Pluto, in the sole interest of preserving the grass at MSV circuits.
Silly me, thinking that the MSA Race Committee had anything to do with it, that it was an attempt to improve driving standards & that it applies at all MSA-licensed race meetings.
Dave,now that was silly of you.Its all JPs fault,NOTHING at all to do with cheating drivers whether they be in btcc or lowly club events.And think of those nasty Observers,telling RC about the 'accidental' crossing of that nasty white line! Put them all in to slot cars- probably no improvement there either.Silly me, thinking that the MSA Race Committee had anything to do with it, that it was an attempt to improve driving standards & that it applies at all MSA-licensed race meetings.
Correct. Nothing at all to do with cheating drivers. Answer the simple question why enough wasn't done in the past to detect and punish drivers who went 4 wheels off?
It happened all the time and frequently in top level tin top racing where drivers knew they could get away with it. Its also something that goes back a very long time, ABS reset switches have been applied to cars like my own since the mid 80's for exactly this reason as running the kerbs can confuse the ABS computer into throwing a fault and turning itself off. This was a mod done on the cars in the original Porsche Cup series so yes it was all about poorly skilled low end club races of course!
As it happens the new rule makes a lot of sense if combined with kerb changes and the pressure plates but this forces a position I alluded to earlier that every track in the country would have to do the same as Mr Palmer for all the corner apexes and exits where an advantage can be made.
It happened all the time and frequently in top level tin top racing where drivers knew they could get away with it. Its also something that goes back a very long time, ABS reset switches have been applied to cars like my own since the mid 80's for exactly this reason as running the kerbs can confuse the ABS computer into throwing a fault and turning itself off. This was a mod done on the cars in the original Porsche Cup series so yes it was all about poorly skilled low end club races of course!
As it happens the new rule makes a lot of sense if combined with kerb changes and the pressure plates but this forces a position I alluded to earlier that every track in the country would have to do the same as Mr Palmer for all the corner apexes and exits where an advantage can be made.
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