No wheels off...
Discussion
Quite a few drivers were penalised for Exceeding Track Limits at Snetterton. Several of which were having a minor accident and losing chunks of time in the process. I'd have thought that was penalty enough, but apparently not. You don't have to gain an advantage or do it on purpose to suffer the wrath of the rules.
And that's just daft.
And that's just daft.
tristancliffe said:
Quite a few drivers were penalised for Exceeding Track Limits at Snetterton. Several of which were having a minor accident and losing chunks of time in the process. I'd have thought that was penalty enough, but apparently not. You don't have to gain an advantage or do it on purpose to suffer the wrath of the rules.
And that's just daft.
that is my big problem with the rules and the worry about how they are going to be enforced.And that's just daft.
if you make an error and are aware of it, I always teach people to let the car run wide, scrub speed and gradually return to the circuit, rather than try to wrestle it back on track as that usually causes an accident. if they are handing out penalties for making a mistake, or running out of talent that is vary dangerous and the sort of thing that can kill people...
tristancliffe said:
Quite a few drivers were penalised for Exceeding Track Limits at Snetterton. Several of which were having a minor accident and losing chunks of time in the process. I'd have thought that was penalty enough, but apparently not. You don't have to gain an advantage or do it on purpose to suffer the wrath of the rules.
And that's just daft.
That must be an interesting conversation then. Any guesses about what "justifiable reason" actually means?And that's just daft.
Bert
tristancliffe said:
Quite a few drivers were penalised for Exceeding Track Limits at Snetterton. Several of which were having a minor accident and losing chunks of time in the process. I'd have thought that was penalty enough, but apparently not. You don't have to gain an advantage or do it on purpose to suffer the wrath of the rules.
And that's just daft.
Were those penalties applied because the minor accident was the third time the drivers has exceeded the track limits? The MSA guidance notes say that a black & white flag is shown after the 2nd reported wheel off and a 5 sec penalty given for the 3rd.And that's just daft.
Even so I think a bit more discretion should be applied when it's clear that not only was there no advantage gained but a driver has lost out after an off track excursion through no fault of their own
NJH said:
Correct. Nothing at all to do with cheating drivers. Answer the simple question why enough wasn't done in the past to detect and punish drivers who went 4 wheels off?
It happened all the time and frequently in top level tin top racing where drivers knew they could get away with it. Its also something that goes back a very long time, ABS reset switches have been applied to cars like my own since the mid 80's for exactly this reason as running the kerbs can confuse the ABS computer into throwing a fault and turning itself off. This was a mod done on the cars in the original Porsche Cup series so yes it was all about poorly skilled low end club races of course!
As it happens the new rule makes a lot of sense if combined with kerb changes and the pressure plates but this forces a position I alluded to earlier that every track in the country would have to do the same as Mr Palmer for all the corner apexes and exits where an advantage can be made.
It has always been in the CoCs hands,if a telling off was considered of possible benefit etc etc. Go back a few years to Silverstone BTCC,drivers were told about going four off at Copse,after three counts a penalty was threatened. Plato was desparately trying to catch the car in front with two laps to go. He went four off on both laps knowing full well that he would not be penalised and obviously thought it funny when he got out of the car after being told there would be no penalty.Four off has always been frowned upon by most CoCs/observers,its nothing new. Alan Gow used to encourage it knowing that some cars would seem to be cornering on two wheels.Made for more interesting viewing apparently- obviously embedded into quite a few minds unfortunately.It happened all the time and frequently in top level tin top racing where drivers knew they could get away with it. Its also something that goes back a very long time, ABS reset switches have been applied to cars like my own since the mid 80's for exactly this reason as running the kerbs can confuse the ABS computer into throwing a fault and turning itself off. This was a mod done on the cars in the original Porsche Cup series so yes it was all about poorly skilled low end club races of course!
As it happens the new rule makes a lot of sense if combined with kerb changes and the pressure plates but this forces a position I alluded to earlier that every track in the country would have to do the same as Mr Palmer for all the corner apexes and exits where an advantage can be made.
I think the whole system is pointless and the judication of it is totally flawed
Race
In races, a rising scale of penalties will be applied according to the number of times a competitor is reported to have exceeded the track limits, as follows:
 Second report : Black & white warning flag
 Next report: Five-second time penalty
 Next report: Drive-through penalty
 Next report: Black flag.
So let's look at this is race situation.
We're at Brands - opening lap. Plenty of tight racing. One gets a little rub into Graham Hill, and you go slightly off. That's yr one freebie done.
a couple of laps in you make a small mistake run a little wide. But as a driver can you tell that you've run slightly wide or set off the pressure plate.
The next lap you run wide again - another mistake and that's your third - 5 sec penalty but as yet you've not seen any flags because it takes at least a couple of laps for an official to put out a black and white with your number on it.
I had a ridiculous penalty last year - supposed out of position start ( i wasn't but that's another story )
MSA regs say that a start line infringement must be shown within 2 laps of the start ( from memory ) mine was shown after 3 laps and the race was limited to 4 laps !
I raced as brands last week and it really wasn't an issue. This coming from someone who was vehemently against this new rule! We still have the clerk of the courses protection too, there is alot to be said for having a sensible clerk. Ultimately they make the calls with regards to penalties.
Yes exactly.There are usually a couple of stewards upstairs and they need to see that action is being taken-fairly.
Like I said a while back, this updated ruling has only come about by drivers taking the p, dont give the CoC reason to take it out of your driving.It IS still as much FUN, just takes a little more concentration and preplanning for the next corner.
Like I said a while back, this updated ruling has only come about by drivers taking the p, dont give the CoC reason to take it out of your driving.It IS still as much FUN, just takes a little more concentration and preplanning for the next corner.
Just got back from Silverstone racing in the BRSCC supercup.
We had no penalties for exceeding track limits, a few black and white flags where people were seeing what they could get away with in practice and qualy and a few running out of talent.
For the guys at the front its a non issue as they are more than capable of going quick inside the white lines. For the guys at the back however.
Like I said before it really isn't that hard. if you can place the car, just run it down the line. Besides the green paint on the international circuit was so bleedin slippy anyway,it was only really onto Hanger straight where an advantage could be gained, and they had the marshalls watching us.
No penalties for avoiding action.
The rules, were consistently applied in my opinion
We had no penalties for exceeding track limits, a few black and white flags where people were seeing what they could get away with in practice and qualy and a few running out of talent.
For the guys at the front its a non issue as they are more than capable of going quick inside the white lines. For the guys at the back however.
Like I said before it really isn't that hard. if you can place the car, just run it down the line. Besides the green paint on the international circuit was so bleedin slippy anyway,it was only really onto Hanger straight where an advantage could be gained, and they had the marshalls watching us.
No penalties for avoiding action.
The rules, were consistently applied in my opinion
Have been keeping my eye on this and what is interesting to me are the penalties in qualifying where general there can be no excuse of being 'pushed wide'. It IS difficult in a race situation but the drivers in the various race at the Brands BTCC meeting seemed to manage fine without going off too many times. It is a case that they at least try and judge if it was "justifiable" and they (stewards/CoC) definitely did disregard some incidents that TV viewers could see as such.
We all agree (I think, well maybe the odd exception) that the 'old' rules weren't policed that well and there were penalties given in situations that weren't warranted (a driver I work with had to take to the grass on the exit of Goddards chicane to avoid a car that had outbraked itself and run through the Gravel, came out in front of him).
This 'new' rule is just different, whether it be to save on grass seed or not is pretty irrelevant, the criticism seems more to do with policing. It was impossible to impose an automatic system like the pressure pads with the old rule, observers do say that the 'new' rule transgressions are easier to spot. As a new rule then all eyes are on the level of detection and enforcement and CoC/Stewards do seem to take this more seriously now which again I think most would agree this is a good thing.
As I said, i've been looking at qualifying, some of the sessions that were run at Silverstone (international) had 5 drivers with laps disallowed and a total of 10 laps disallowed in total, at least one driver I saw had 3 laps disallowed. It was interesting that in all cases it was the 'actual' lap of the infringement that was disallowed, I seem to recall that in the past it has been the drivers 'fastest lap' that was dropped, irrespective of if it was that lap he 'went off' on. It's definitely been the case in some races I have taken part in. This may have been because they didn't have such stringent procedures for noting which actual lap the driver exceeded track limits.
I did a very quick, cursory check of the disallowed laps. I think out of 20 laps I saw disallowed only 2 were the drivers fastest laps.
Now the question is, and I am undecided, should you just get the laps you went 'off track' disallowed or should any instance result in your fastest lap being removed?
In can see both sides of the potential argument, maybe the off was a slight misjudgment on cold tyres, slippier track than you realised, minor mechanical issue etc. it would then seem a bit harsh but if you are capable of doing lets say a 1:30 lap then you have all the rest of the session to prove it.
If you are going off because you are throwing it into a corner with just the hope that you'll just manage to stay on track, or, are pushing your luck with the rules then isn't it more fitting to lose your best lap, again, if your 'good enough' your 2nd best lap should be almost as quick and shouldn't there be some penalty?
Maybe there is a case for a sliding scale, one 'off' and that lap disallowed, 2 offs and your fastest disallowed, 3 off and ??? maybe back of the grid, maybe even with a 10 sec penalty? harsh, it happened a few years ago to an MX5 racer, was put to the back of the grid with a 10sec penalty for "exceeding track limits".
Maxx said:
observers do say that the 'new' rule transgressions are easier to spot. As a new rule then all eyes are on the level of detection and enforcement and CoC/Stewards do seem to take this more seriously now which again I think most would agree this is a good thing.
Now the question is, and I am undecided, should you just get the laps you went 'off track' disallowed or should any instance result in your fastest lap being removed?
On the first point, I think they are easier to spot. The big difference now, of course, is that track limit infringements must be reported by a Judge of Fact - observers/Post Chiefs are not Judges of Fact unless specifically appointed as such. I don't know how other circuits are doing it, but at Oulton the Judges of Fact out on circuit, normally people with Post Chief grade, are only looking at track limit infringements, leaving the Post Chief in charge of the post to carry on with the normal business involved in running the post.Now the question is, and I am undecided, should you just get the laps you went 'off track' disallowed or should any instance result in your fastest lap being removed?
Don't forget you can be black-&-whited for other offences, not just track limits!
On the second point, I'd say just disallow the "off track" laps. It's a bit harsh to disallow a legitimate fastest lap.
Maxx said:
As I said, i've been looking at qualifying, some of the sessions that were run at Silverstone (international) had 5 drivers with laps disallowed and a total of 10 laps disallowed in total, at least one driver I saw had 3 laps disallowed. It was interesting that in all cases it was the 'actual' lap of the infringement that was disallowed, I seem to recall that in the past it has been the drivers 'fastest lap' that was dropped, irrespective of if it was that lap he 'went off' on. It's definitely been the case in some races I have taken part in. This may have been because they didn't have such stringent procedures for noting which actual lap the driver exceeded track limits.
I did a very quick, cursory check of the disallowed laps. I think out of 20 laps I saw disallowed only 2 were the drivers fastest laps.
Now the question is, and I am undecided, should you just get the laps you went 'off track' disallowed or should any instance result in your fastest lap being removed?
MSA guidelines said:
In qualifying a report is received and where it is shown that a driver has gained advantage on that particular lap, i.e. a faster lap time, then that lap time will be removed. This can be done as often as is required.
First weekend of racing at Snet - and no surprise. I end up getting a 5 sec penalty during a 40mins race.
I have no idea where I went off 3 times - I saw a black and white on one lap - couldn't see the number and by the next lap it was gone. It's exactly what my concerns were. Firstly there's absolutely no way of knowing if and when you've exceeded the track limit - or at least when you've gone too far. I certainly know I went slightly wide coming on to back straight - basically followed the car in front who went wide. But as for the other 2, I have no idea. COC was too busy but I will email him during the week to see if I can give them some feedback.
Holding out a board for 1 lap is ridiculous - the warning system just doesn't work.
Most races are just 20mins - but the same penalties apply ? That can't be right. It made no difference to the results I was 14secs clear of the car behind me. But I almost had the car in front in the last corner - If I'd fought hard all race and to take another place only to lose it, I would have been furious.
( I won my class )
Race 1 I was on slicks and had no problem with track limits. A slick is a more stable platform.
Race 2 I was on Toyo and when yr on the limit the more around more.
I hate this rule !!!
I have no idea where I went off 3 times - I saw a black and white on one lap - couldn't see the number and by the next lap it was gone. It's exactly what my concerns were. Firstly there's absolutely no way of knowing if and when you've exceeded the track limit - or at least when you've gone too far. I certainly know I went slightly wide coming on to back straight - basically followed the car in front who went wide. But as for the other 2, I have no idea. COC was too busy but I will email him during the week to see if I can give them some feedback.
Holding out a board for 1 lap is ridiculous - the warning system just doesn't work.
Most races are just 20mins - but the same penalties apply ? That can't be right. It made no difference to the results I was 14secs clear of the car behind me. But I almost had the car in front in the last corner - If I'd fought hard all race and to take another place only to lose it, I would have been furious.
( I won my class )
Race 1 I was on slicks and had no problem with track limits. A slick is a more stable platform.
Race 2 I was on Toyo and when yr on the limit the more around more.
I hate this rule !!!
Edited by woof on Sunday 13th April 19:48
Just a bit of info... I raced at Snett on Saturday and during the race I checked at the start/finish line every lap and a black and white flag was on show with the same 2 numbers displayed every lap, (thankfully not our number)
I think the new rules will blend into racing fairly quickly, it just levels the playing field and cuts out the habitual corner cutters
I think the new rules will blend into racing fairly quickly, it just levels the playing field and cuts out the habitual corner cutters
woof said:
First weekend of racing at Snet - and no surprise. I end up getting a 5 sec penalty during a 40mins race.
I have no idea where I went off 3 times - I saw a black and white on one lap - couldn't see the number and by the next lap it was gone...... I certainly know I went slightly wide coming on to back straight - basically followed the car in front who went wide.
Slightly wide JM???!I have no idea where I went off 3 times - I saw a black and white on one lap - couldn't see the number and by the next lap it was gone...... I certainly know I went slightly wide coming on to back straight - basically followed the car in front who went wide.
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