No wheels off...

[BertBert]

That's where the word "justifiable" comes in to the regs. Is there any info from MAS about what "justifiable" means. One images that contact might be a justifiable reason. What about "driver error"?
BErt

[Graham]

Plenty of cars over the track limits in the btcc as usual and didnt see many penalties


I think the whole idea of you get 2 chances then its a penalty sends the wrong message. Plato played up to that last year, when he deliberately cut the circuit twice knowing he'd get a way with it and blatantly cheating, some poor clubby learning his craft runs wide a couple of time in error gets a penalty thats just plain not fair.

So i dont see the new rule clamping down on cheating, just annoying people who make mistakes..


IF your going to have a circuit limits rule it should be that if you go over the circuit limits and your sector time isnt noticeably slower than usual then it should be up before the coc cheque book in hand, and either a bloody good excuse or a fine/points/exclusion. Now that would stop cheating... If you've run wide due to error you know it, and will have had to back off to avoid the accident.. admittedly if your going wide at every corner due to error then a chat with the coc and a suggestion of a bit of tuition might be a good idea...

[lol1]

I was at a meeting a couple of weeks ago and in the driver briefing after quali we were told that one car had its best time disallowed as it had exceeded track limits and that if he exceeded track limits again in the race he would go straight to a 5 second penalty.

Surely that can’t be right as he was penalised in quali and the race is a completely different session.

[BertBert]

I didn't get where I am today by not making it up as I go along.
Bert
PS thanks CJ

[andy97]

What do the rules say about 2 cars going completely off track at the last corner to come first and second. Yes I'm talking about BTCC. No point in a "who was to blame" discussion. It was an avoidable incident. Both cars went off track but no chance of a penalty to be applied. The rules don't apply on the last lap!

[andy97]

What do the rules say about 2 cars going completely off track at the last corner to come first and second. Yes I'm talking about BTCC. No point in a "who was to blame" discussion. It was an avoidable incident. Both cars went off track but no chance of a penalty to be applied. The rules don't apply on the last lap!

[BertBert]

why would we think that the rules don't apply on the last lap?
Bert

[TwoLeadFeet]

The rules don't appear to apply to BTCC on any lap

[woof]

Having tested today at Brands under the full draconian 3 offences during a day and you're sin binned for 20mins (effectively ending our day). I can tell you I will never test again at a MSV circuit if I can ever help it. Bare in mind this isn't a race day nor running under MSA regs. These are palmers own rules. 3 times wide and your sin binned for 20mins. Another off and your sin binned again. Now these aren't the "rules" they send out - MSV send you the MSA regulations. Then impose their own rules when you're on the test day.

Sharing the car today with a top international driver, who made 1 off during his session. Then in the next session I made a genuine mistake and choose to run wide rather than risk a spin and potential accident ( still only 2 wheels off) and then ran literally a few inches wide (not even a half a wheel off) and I was sin binned.

It's ridiculous that in a race car test session you can't "test" yourself and the cars limits without being sin binned and being told off like you're some naughty school boy.

I'm not a top national racer, but I'd like to try and make my way up to that point. But how do you get better without making the odd mistake.

Edited by woof on Wednesday 23 April 21:04

[Graham]

That perfectly illustrates the point it has nothing to do with driving standards, as you cant be cheating on a test day. And also my biggest issue with the whole thing in that if youve made a mistake its safer to let it run wide rather than risk an accident

[Keithyboy]

woof said:

Having tested today at Brands under the full draconian 3 offences during a day and you're sin binned for 20mins (effectively ending our day). I can tell you I will never test again at a MSV circuit if I can ever help it. Bare in mind this isn't a race day nor running under MSA regs. These are palmers own rules. 3 times wide and your sin binned for 20mins. Another off and your sin binned again. Now these aren't the "rules" they send out - MSV send you the MSA regulations. Then impose their own rules when you're on the test day.

Sharing the car today with a top international driver, who made 1 off during his session. Then in the next session I made a genuine mistake and choose to run wide rather than risk a spin and potential accident ( still only 2 wheels off) and then ran literally a few inches wide (not even a half a wheel off) and I was sin binned.

It's ridiculous that in a race car test session you can't "test" yourself and the cars limits without being sin binned and being told off like you're some naughty school boy.

I'm not a top national racer, but I'd like to try and make my way up to that point. But how do you get better without making the odd mistake.

Edited by woof on Wednesday 23 April 21:04

I was testing there yesterday too in the blue Tuscan - what were you driving?

[woof]

Graham said:

That perfectly illustrates the point it has nothing to do with driving standards, as you cant be cheating on a test day. And also my biggest issue with the whole thing in that if youve made a mistake its safer to let it run wide rather than risk an accident

I was told that if you've made a mistake, you're driving too hard and out of control.

Incidentally - They've put the run off strips too close to the kerbing as any GT car running on the kerb but with some of the tyre over sets off the cameras. £200k well spent Palmer

[Boxster66]

Sin bin, where else would you expect to see a Boxster Bad Boy!

[Graham]

woof said:

I was told that if you've made a mistake, you're driving too hard and out of control.

isnt that the point of testing though ?


somebody better tell the likes of hamilton et al as they are frequently off the road and even crashing

[mad4amanda]

woof said:

Graham said:

That perfectly illustrates the point it has nothing to do with driving standards, as you cant be cheating on a test day. And also my biggest issue with the whole thing in that if youve made a mistake its safer to let it run wide rather than risk an accident

I was told that if you've made a mistake, you're driving too hard and out of control.

Incidentally - They've put the run off strips too close to the kerbing as any GT car running on the kerb but with some of the tyre over sets off the cameras. £200k well spent Palmer

The "run off strips" you refer to are the sensors and are a significant distance from the kerb as anyone walking the track can see so to set them off you are clearly in breach of the ruling. The rule from what I remember isnt prescriptive about staying on part of the kerb with part of the tyre but states:

Q14.4.2.b states that:
‘a driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel of the car either goes beyond the outer
edge of any kerb or goes beyond the white line where there is no kerb’
For illustrative purposes, the images below show cars in acceptable and unacceptable positions.

For the avoidance of doubt, this means that competitors can drive on the circuit, including the white
line, and any kerb.

so your comment regarding the placing of the sensor is wrong clearly.
As for the application of the rules in testing surely it makes sense to effectively police this in the same manner as racing otherwise the damage to the run off areas would continue and the benefit would be negligible for other users of the track? It is only about driving standards in that poor driving standards have been allowed and under the old straddle rule even encouraged and now for safety and economic reasons it has changed. As for the penalties applied well that`s for MSV to judge as they own the circuit and you will have been made very aware of this when you booked and signed on to a test day,if you were not please let me know and I will feed it back.
The reality is that it is only a small if vocal minority of drivers that are being affected adversely by the rulings both on test and race days and they do tend to be drivers that have some car control issues or are in denial about the new ruling and how it will be enforced.
What has been interesting so far is that when presented with clear photographic evidence the drivers have very little to say. The clerks I have worked with so far have been supportive and complimentary about the system as they can see how it is used and are able to review video footage to make a judgement about how the car ran wide and hence action to be taken and being not in control of the car is not a valid reason in the same way it wouldn`t be during your ARDS test. Bear in mind we are talking multiple incidents before sanction is taken , for me the biggest issue is clear communication of the warning flag so you know you are under scrutiny, would this be better if displayed at druids in as well as startline perhaps?
As far as I can see this is a change management issue and needs to be dealt with as such.

[woof]

Laughable.

Well I've decided to make my feelings known by cancelling all my testing at MSV circuits this year. That's about £1500 worth. It's a shame there isn't a drivers association that could stand up for what drivers want, rather than one persons OCD about his grass.

fk MSV and fk Palmer

[BertBert]

well good on you. I'm not out as yet this year and I'm not sure I'd be strong enough not to test as there's no point in racing without testing for me!
Bert

[woof]

BertBert said:

well good on you. I'm not out as yet this year and I'm not sure I'd be strong enough not to test as there's no point in racing without testing for me!
Bert

Donington, Silverstone & Rockingham are all great testing circuits and don't have the same testing rules. Go wide and it isn't an issue.

It would be great if a percentage of drivers stopped testing. That's the only thing Palmer would take notice of. Less money in his pocket.

Have a good weekend everyone and enjoy your racing if you are

[bromers2]

woof said:

Laughable.

Well I've decided to make my feelings known by cancelling all my testing at MSV circuits this year. That's about £1500 worth. It's a shame there isn't a drivers association that could stand up for what drivers want, rather than one persons OCD about his grass.

fk MSV and fk Palmer

Is that really the reason the rule was implemented ?

Is it just applicable in the UK then ?

[woof]

bromers2 said:

woof said:

Laughable.
Well I've decided to make my feelings known by cancelling all my testing at MSV circuits this year. That's about £1500 worth. It's a shame there isn't a drivers association that could stand up for what drivers want, rather than one persons OCD about his grass.

fk MSV and fk Palmer

Is that really the reason the rule was implemented ?
Is it just applicable in the UK then ?

It's just UK. It's applied at all race meetings but MSV are the only circuits that forcible apply it at their circuits on test days as well. It's purely to protect his grass verges.

The MSV staff member quoted this to me "Well at least our circuits looks nice with green grass everywhere".
Palmer flies in in his helicopter and likes to see lush green grass everywhere. He owns the circuits so good for him if he wants them to look great. But he's lost the plot over this.

I was at Snetterton last weekend and they had the sprinklers on, on a small patch of grass in the paddock. Nuff said.