No wheels off...
Discussion
That was done at the request of the club and the clerks and is common sense as it stops piles of gravel being dumped around the circuit, and there were not many marshals per post to clear it which would have resulted in more delays. As it was a couple of races had to be cut on Sunday.
MGCC were very appreciative of the marshals help as always and managed a break both days to give the crew on track a rest.
Certainly as far as track limits was concerned it was very quiet with most drivers learning from Friday testing that there were monitors in place and driving accordingly the number of reported issues was low (as opposed to detected) and once the clerks had done the driver briefings with the aid of copies of the generated reports word soon got around and it became a non issue. Response once again from the drivers, clerks and MSA stewards was extremely positive.
MGCC were very appreciative of the marshals help as always and managed a break both days to give the crew on track a rest.
Certainly as far as track limits was concerned it was very quiet with most drivers learning from Friday testing that there were monitors in place and driving accordingly the number of reported issues was low (as opposed to detected) and once the clerks had done the driver briefings with the aid of copies of the generated reports word soon got around and it became a non issue. Response once again from the drivers, clerks and MSA stewards was extremely positive.
AndyAlfa18 said:
I was midly amused on Saturday at Brands. Everytime someone was recovered from Paddock Hill gravel trap, they were made to drive on the grass all the way round Druids and Graham Hill to prevent gravel on the track. JP did fly in around 3pm in his helicopter - wonder if he was watching on CCTV at home!!
I've been asking (not making!) drivers to do that in similar situations for a long time time now. It's really just plain old common sense; where would you rather have gravel - on the grass or on the track?As any regular PHer know this is my favourite thing to moan about.
But this did make me laugh - I'd like to sit Palmer down in a nice padded cell with this on a large screen TV left on repeat for him to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv_qOeOLYMg
But this did make me laugh - I'd like to sit Palmer down in a nice padded cell with this on a large screen TV left on repeat for him to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv_qOeOLYMg
I dont think he would mind; but he would rather watch this one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xf7QQDHoNQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xf7QQDHoNQ
mad4amanda said:
I dont think he would mind; but he would rather watch this one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xf7QQDHoNQ
Ha - well spotted. He wasn't a bad peddler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xf7QQDHoNQ
BertBert said:
So after a season of the new rule, how do we feel about it? How did it go? As I had the worst season ever (only starting 3 races and only managing to finish 1) I'm not really qualified to comment!
Bert
Similar season to me - 3 races - 2wins icn 1 x 5sec penalty in my first race at Snett and a DNF Bert
I've watched a lot of club racing this year and there have been a lot penalties applied. My view still it that it's totally unnecessary and it's ruined a lot of peoples races. There are better and fairer ways of making people stick within track limits.
I've watched some too. It seemed there were less penalties later in the season. From a spectator point of view especially for sprint races, in-race 5 second penalties are horrible.
How's it been from the dark side which I think I'm right in saying you belong to Mad4amanda?
Bert
PS that's just a jest about the dark side before anyone takes it seriously!
How's it been from the dark side which I think I'm right in saying you belong to Mad4amanda?
Bert
PS that's just a jest about the dark side before anyone takes it seriously!
I had a 5 second penalty at Oulton a couple of weeks ago, I haven't watched the whole of my video back, but I can't remember particularly infringing. I certainly did exceed track limits a couple of times, once to avoid a crash, once because I got it wrong. Presumably I infringed a few more times as well, but if I did they were marginal as I certainly don't recall them. I lost a fourth place which would have been my best result so far.
It annoys me because I certainly wasn't trying to gain an advantage through running wide (and don't think I did), but primarily it annoys me because it detracts from a great track. Oh and the spectators told me they had no idea what was going on as they only heard about the penalty after the race.
It annoys me because I certainly wasn't trying to gain an advantage through running wide (and don't think I did), but primarily it annoys me because it detracts from a great track. Oh and the spectators told me they had no idea what was going on as they only heard about the penalty after the race.
No worries Bert ! Its more the green side now as the grass is certainly greener!
It has been interesting especially watching the reactions of drivers storming into the clerks claiming they never went off well maybe once and yet having up to 12 photos laid out all with different times on them , they tend to go very quiet very quickly.
The 12 was a formula ford in a 14 lap race and all were in the one place, needless to say that cost him the race but was blatant .
I would say that we can see a change in driver behaviour in the main, especially where the drivers know the sensors are, we try and give photos to clerks taken on either test days or similar meetings to share at briefings and that spreads the word .
I know that on race weekends we are very conscious of researching the cause by the video captured and I try to err on the side of caution to give the competitor the benefit of any doubt, making sure there is a very clear image of a clear infringement before passing along the information, I would not want to see a driver penalised for a loss of control for example.
Interesting that the majority of penalties applied at BTCC came from JoF reports from the GP element although we did have a couple of pictures taken for evidence.
The system now reads the transponder for the car and has the driver details uploaded through the Timekeepers. It has been very well received by every clerk I have met and most drivers.
It has been interesting especially watching the reactions of drivers storming into the clerks claiming they never went off well maybe once and yet having up to 12 photos laid out all with different times on them , they tend to go very quiet very quickly.
The 12 was a formula ford in a 14 lap race and all were in the one place, needless to say that cost him the race but was blatant .
I would say that we can see a change in driver behaviour in the main, especially where the drivers know the sensors are, we try and give photos to clerks taken on either test days or similar meetings to share at briefings and that spreads the word .
I know that on race weekends we are very conscious of researching the cause by the video captured and I try to err on the side of caution to give the competitor the benefit of any doubt, making sure there is a very clear image of a clear infringement before passing along the information, I would not want to see a driver penalised for a loss of control for example.
Interesting that the majority of penalties applied at BTCC came from JoF reports from the GP element although we did have a couple of pictures taken for evidence.
The system now reads the transponder for the car and has the driver details uploaded through the Timekeepers. It has been very well received by every clerk I have met and most drivers.
It's clear that drivers get penalties because they've made a mistake or even gone off track because someone else has made a mistake.
The best example of how this system is totally unfair was the last time I tested at Brands.
We had 2 drivers in the car. Paid for both drivers.
One of those drivers made 1 mistake in paddock and another one in Graham Hill on the same lap. (that driver is a world class professional driver). Minor infractions. The car was being setup and it was understeering more than you would like.
I then got into the car and did a run - got an oversteer moment in Graham Hill - corrected and run slightly wide (my only infraction in 60 laps of running) And then I got a sin bin for 30mins. The car was penalised not the driver ?!! and when I explained that I made a mistake then I was told well you shouldn't make mistakes, you're obviously going to fast and can't control your car. It's a test day!!! We packed up and went home.
That plainly isn't fair. And is also why I refuse to test at MSV circuits now.
The best example of how this system is totally unfair was the last time I tested at Brands.
We had 2 drivers in the car. Paid for both drivers.
One of those drivers made 1 mistake in paddock and another one in Graham Hill on the same lap. (that driver is a world class professional driver). Minor infractions. The car was being setup and it was understeering more than you would like.
I then got into the car and did a run - got an oversteer moment in Graham Hill - corrected and run slightly wide (my only infraction in 60 laps of running) And then I got a sin bin for 30mins. The car was penalised not the driver ?!! and when I explained that I made a mistake then I was told well you shouldn't make mistakes, you're obviously going to fast and can't control your car. It's a test day!!! We packed up and went home.
That plainly isn't fair. And is also why I refuse to test at MSV circuits now.
SmartVenom said:
I had a 5 second penalty at Oulton a couple of weeks ago, I haven't watched the whole of my video back, but I can't remember particularly infringing. I certainly did exceed track limits a couple of times, once to avoid a crash, once because I got it wrong. Presumably I infringed a few more times as well, but if I did they were marginal as I certainly don't recall them. I lost a fourth place which would have been my best result so far.
It annoys me because I certainly wasn't trying to gain an advantage through running wide (and don't think I did), but primarily it annoys me because it detracts from a great track. Oh and the spectators told me they had no idea what was going on as they only heard about the penalty after the race.
Also the problem is that how is that is conveyed to you. Post race it's too late. The startline marshal is far from foolproof. I've seen them fail to show any flags / penalty boards for a car because they had too many to show and couldn't coordinate it properly. It annoys me because I certainly wasn't trying to gain an advantage through running wide (and don't think I did), but primarily it annoys me because it detracts from a great track. Oh and the spectators told me they had no idea what was going on as they only heard about the penalty after the race.
Great you win the race and then you get a 5 sec penalty that you didn't know about. If we all had radios then the process would be simpler and fairer for all. You get a notification that you made an infraction and at what corner.
And as I have previously mentioned. Let's say you're doing a 15min race at Brands Hatch indy - there's basically 3 corners that you could pick up a penalty. so roughly 60 possible times you could get a penalty.
vs
Snetterton 300 and a 1hr race. 12 corners (?) say 360 times you could get a penalty - but it's still just the 2 warnings
It's so poorly thought out
Thank god we have amazing tracks like Donington who sensibly police the rules.
I hate this ridiculous save the grass rule
Edited by woof on Thursday 16th October 16:12
Of my six races this year only one was with MSV so I may have had the easy side of it, I've seen warning flags being used and quali laps disallowed, not sure if any of the guys I've been up against have had any penalties in the race though.
I'm OK with the new rule but it probably plays in my favour as I'm a long term trackdayer who has only started racing cars this year, staying within (or on) the kerbs fits my driving style anyway and doesn't seem to have done me any harm with six finishes and some reasonable results.
I do agree with the comments about enforcement, it needs to be where track limits have been exceeded by choice of line rather than mistake or avoiding other cars etc but there will always be errors in how this is applied. MSV have a tendency to do everything at 101%, it works well in many areas but could result in harsh enforcement here.
I'm OK with the new rule but it probably plays in my favour as I'm a long term trackdayer who has only started racing cars this year, staying within (or on) the kerbs fits my driving style anyway and doesn't seem to have done me any harm with six finishes and some reasonable results.
I do agree with the comments about enforcement, it needs to be where track limits have been exceeded by choice of line rather than mistake or avoiding other cars etc but there will always be errors in how this is applied. MSV have a tendency to do everything at 101%, it works well in many areas but could result in harsh enforcement here.
woof said:
And as I have previously mentioned. Let's say you're doing a 15min race at Brands Hatch indy - there's basically 3 corners that you could pick up a penalty. so roughly 60 possible times you could get a penalty.
vs
Snetterton 300 and a 1hr race. 12 corners (?) say 360 times you could get a penalty - but it's still just the 2 warnings
It's so poorly thought out
Thank god we have amazing tracks like Donington who sensibly police the rules.
I hate this ridiculous save the grass rule
Agree 100%, this to me shows a rushed through, ill thought out rule change.vs
Snetterton 300 and a 1hr race. 12 corners (?) say 360 times you could get a penalty - but it's still just the 2 warnings
It's so poorly thought out
Thank god we have amazing tracks like Donington who sensibly police the rules.
I hate this ridiculous save the grass rule
Edited by woof on Thursday 16th October 16:12
A rule change that lacks support amongst racers, marshals and fans from what I can gather.
I haven't had a problem with the rule change. It's same for everybody and I don't think it's really much different to 4wo if I'm honest because there is usually a kerb on the corners you can cut anyway.
The main problem is inconsistency and the policing of the rules. At Castle Combe I was following a guy who was cutting the chicanes and taking chunks out of me as I was doing them as per book and he didn't get penalised. I woz gutted.
I was under the impression that the rules stated that you would get a warning flag after two offences, then a five second penalty after the next offence etc etc but apparently not. If you ahve a particularly scratty lap, you can get a bad mark for Paddock Hill Bend, another at Druids, the inevitable one at Graham Hill and you are excluded by clearways. Also, if the marshals are too busy to wave the warning flags at you (too many infringers or other flags to wave) that doesn't mean you've got away with it. It means that you just don't know that you haven't.I find all that a bit unfair but fortunately have managed to keep it predominantly between the lines this year so haven't had to put the rules to the test.
The main problem is inconsistency and the policing of the rules. At Castle Combe I was following a guy who was cutting the chicanes and taking chunks out of me as I was doing them as per book and he didn't get penalised. I woz gutted.
I was under the impression that the rules stated that you would get a warning flag after two offences, then a five second penalty after the next offence etc etc but apparently not. If you ahve a particularly scratty lap, you can get a bad mark for Paddock Hill Bend, another at Druids, the inevitable one at Graham Hill and you are excluded by clearways. Also, if the marshals are too busy to wave the warning flags at you (too many infringers or other flags to wave) that doesn't mean you've got away with it. It means that you just don't know that you haven't.I find all that a bit unfair but fortunately have managed to keep it predominantly between the lines this year so haven't had to put the rules to the test.
Sorry but that is incorrect after 2 clear infringements you would be given the driver warning flag if you committed a further infringement before taking the flag they would be noted but not move you on to the next level until you had taken the driver warning flag and then committed a further infringement of course the clerk could take them into account in forming their judgement as to whether or not to impose a further penalty.
I.E. they would demonstrate consistent infringement rather than the oft quoted series of one off incidents.
I.E. they would demonstrate consistent infringement rather than the oft quoted series of one off incidents.
Mad4amanda.
What you have said is how I would have interpreted the rules and would be a fair way of implementing them. But unfortunately, I'm informed that this is not how they are run. You can accrue sufficient black marks to receive penalties before you know you have them. It also explains previous posts where someone said they had penalties applied after the finish and without warning.
My source of info is from a start line marshal.
What you have said is how I would have interpreted the rules and would be a fair way of implementing them. But unfortunately, I'm informed that this is not how they are run. You can accrue sufficient black marks to receive penalties before you know you have them. It also explains previous posts where someone said they had penalties applied after the finish and without warning.
My source of info is from a start line marshal.
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