No wheels off...
Discussion
Jerry Can said:
tristancliffe said:
Good article in this weeks Autosport about it. It actually tempered my view of the change, so maybe it won't be a bad thing at all if they can police it right (consistently, without being too draconian, and without turning each session into a witch hunt).
you mean the article written by Jonathan Palmer?. Yeah it was a great article, completely balanced and confirmed what we know already = that grass seed is f
king expensive in Kent, Norfolk, Cheshire and Lincolnshire.remind me: How many millions did MSV make last year?
pistolp said:
Terenceb please can you explain that point to me?
I drive in the Ginetta GT Supercup and I am really struggling to see how this is a positive for the sport?
Quite simply the circuits were not designed with mistakes to corners included.IE,they were designed as a test of driver skill. Take youre best lap,any circuit,then equal it without using the kerbs.They were never intended for us to use.I drive in the Ginetta GT Supercup and I am really struggling to see how this is a positive for the sport?
Terence - no club or international likes this ruling. Go race in Europe or the US - you can use certain parts of the track. Monza being a great example. If JP wants us to avoid the curbs and grass, then he should build some walls around the circuit.
I know as yr a MSV instructor you have to protect your position with them but this rule is utter nonsense and I hope that all the clubs follow CSCC's lead on this. Perhaps as drivers we should have our say as well. Online petition time ? Or better still boycott testing - that will hurt more than a few quid on grass seed !
I know as yr a MSV instructor you have to protect your position with them but this rule is utter nonsense and I hope that all the clubs follow CSCC's lead on this. Perhaps as drivers we should have our say as well. Online petition time ? Or better still boycott testing - that will hurt more than a few quid on grass seed !
steeviegeebies said:
I agree. Old rule was perfect.
FIA should be required to ratify this change, but I doubt other national bodies would support it, so MSA could be putting British drivers at a disadvantage whereby they have to relearn cornering technique when moving up to international champs.
Also, UK circuits should be asked to remove the white line on the track edge of the kerb and paint it on the outside edge to avoid confusion over where the track limit is.
I hadn't thought of the sudden change in standards when you move to international racing.FIA should be required to ratify this change, but I doubt other national bodies would support it, so MSA could be putting British drivers at a disadvantage whereby they have to relearn cornering technique when moving up to international champs.
Also, UK circuits should be asked to remove the white line on the track edge of the kerb and paint it on the outside edge to avoid confusion over where the track limit is.
I've read through this, and some very good points are raised. My thoughts are thus:
- The old rule was pretty much perfect, universally understood and gives reasonable margin for error without allowing excessive cutting
- One wheel off is draconian and extremely hard to avoid consistently in most cars
- Drivers, especially novices, will make more mistakes trying desperately to avoid tiny excursions
- Including the kerbs in the track limits is daft, as the white lines are inside them and appear to exclude them
- Opposing FIA rulings on such a major defining point of racing is idiotic
Just think how much your lines are going to have to change, and think how hard it can be in tin tops to accurately place a wheel on the white line but never over it. Particularly in a heated moment, running two wheels off is good, because it allows you extra space within the (current) rules, and you can feel very well where you are and how much space you have left before you're four off.
I can think of no advantage whatsoever to this new rule for driver safety, level of challenge, spectator enjoyment, or judgement of fact. And that is all the MSA should be concerned about. Not Johnathan Palmer's landscaping expenses.
woof said:
Terence - no club or international likes this ruling. Go race in Europe or the US - you can use certain parts of the track. Monza being a great example. If JP wants us to avoid the curbs and grass, then he should build some walls around the circuit.
I know as yr a MSV instructor you have to protect your position with them but this rule is utter nonsense and I hope that all the clubs follow CSCC's lead on this. Perhaps as drivers we should have our say as well. Online petition time ? Or better still boycott testing - that will hurt more than a few quid on grass seed !
well said!I know as yr a MSV instructor you have to protect your position with them but this rule is utter nonsense and I hope that all the clubs follow CSCC's lead on this. Perhaps as drivers we should have our say as well. Online petition time ? Or better still boycott testing - that will hurt more than a few quid on grass seed !
Excellent post McSam.
Terenceb I'm glad you are of the view that it makes driving more skilful. I completely disagree of course but that's life. At least not everyone is unhappy with this new rule.
I agree with McSam, its bloody hard to tell if you've put a wheel over the edge of a painted curb, yet its relatively easy not to put four wheels off. The old rule should have been an acceptable compromise.
But, lets not kid ourselves, this isn't about making racing a greater spectacle of driver precision. Nice try MSV. No, its solely a cost issue and that's just wrong.
Terenceb I'm glad you are of the view that it makes driving more skilful. I completely disagree of course but that's life. At least not everyone is unhappy with this new rule.
I agree with McSam, its bloody hard to tell if you've put a wheel over the edge of a painted curb, yet its relatively easy not to put four wheels off. The old rule should have been an acceptable compromise.
But, lets not kid ourselves, this isn't about making racing a greater spectacle of driver precision. Nice try MSV. No, its solely a cost issue and that's just wrong.
if we want to make a protest I can't see a voluntary ban on testing working - there are too many people looking for an advantage to make that work. But... if we want to do a 'civil disobedience' thing and remind the MSA to listen to its customers, may be we could all agree not to apply for our 2014 licences until February 1st. Let's see how the MSA manage with no licensing income for a couple of months....?
terenceb said:
Quite simply the circuits were not designed with mistakes to corners included.IE,they were designed as a test of driver skill.
That's an interesting thought, but I completely disagree. I think circuits were exactly expecting mistakes at corners and the circuits and the rules tolerated those mistakes well.I think what is actually happening is that the circuits and rules are trying to get to the state you suggest.
I'm intrigued as to why you think the way you do. Do you have any historical references or evidence to support your assertion?
Bert
Jerry Can said:
if we want to make a protest I can't see a voluntary ban on testing working - there are too many people looking for an advantage to make that work. But... if we want to do a 'civil disobedience' thing and remind the MSA to listen to its customers, may be we could all agree not to apply for our 2014 licences until February 1st. Let's see how the MSA manage with no licensing income for a couple of months....?
Easy enough to start a online petition towards the MSA if anyone actually wants to take action. Looks like there would be plenty of people to sign it.I'm happy to do it, also happy to agree to not renewing my license.
I'm going to speak to a lawyer next week who specialises in motorsport issues. I want to see if we can challenge it legally in anyway. Unlikely but I at least want to make myself a pain in their arse. I'm also intrigued about this consultation process? With clubs like BARC and CSCC raising their eyebrow as to how this can be sensibly implemented, one has to wonder to what extent this new rule has been scrutinised.
I'm going to speak to a lawyer next week who specialises in motorsport issues. I want to see if we can challenge it legally in anyway. Unlikely but I at least want to make myself a pain in their arse. I'm also intrigued about this consultation process? With clubs like BARC and CSCC raising their eyebrow as to how this can be sensibly implemented, one has to wonder to what extent this new rule has been scrutinised.
BertBert said:
That's an interesting thought, but I completely disagree. I think circuits were exactly expecting mistakes at corners and the circuits and the rules tolerated those mistakes well.
I think what is actually happening is that the circuits and rules are trying to get to the state you suggest.
I'm intrigued as to why you think the way you do. Do you have any historical references or evidence to support your assertion?
Bert
As far as circuits are concerned,we are looking at around 30yrs since kerbing was put in.That kerbing is outside the white line limit.I speak as an individual,yes,I instruct but not just MSV,also in Belgium and Germany,the point is that until F1,BTCC came along driving over track limits was never seen as "High Driving Standard"it was ,an still to some extent,seen as cheating,gaining an unfair advantage.Hence my earlier reference to "Black Jack Brabham".I think what is actually happening is that the circuits and rules are trying to get to the state you suggest.
I'm intrigued as to why you think the way you do. Do you have any historical references or evidence to support your assertion?
Bert
Anyway,I leave you all to it,off to The Ring.
So a petition and not renewing licences to Feb 1st ?
What should the wording be.
Something like.
As a MSA competitor and or motorsport fan, I disagree with the newly revised MSA rule 14.4.2 "no wheels off" Namely
The old rule was universally understood and gives reasonable margin for error without allowing excessive cutting
One wheel off is draconian and extremely hard to avoid consistently in most cars
Drivers, especially novices, will make more mistakes trying desperately to avoid tiny excursions
Opposing FIA rulings on such a major defining point will make a more difficult transition for National drivers moving up into International events.
We would ask the MSA to review this new ruling and revert back to the existing track definitions and would suggest a 2 wheel on/off definition.
Need to get this spot on
What should the wording be.
Something like.
As a MSA competitor and or motorsport fan, I disagree with the newly revised MSA rule 14.4.2 "no wheels off" Namely
The old rule was universally understood and gives reasonable margin for error without allowing excessive cutting
One wheel off is draconian and extremely hard to avoid consistently in most cars
Drivers, especially novices, will make more mistakes trying desperately to avoid tiny excursions
Opposing FIA rulings on such a major defining point will make a more difficult transition for National drivers moving up into International events.
We would ask the MSA to review this new ruling and revert back to the existing track definitions and would suggest a 2 wheel on/off definition.
Need to get this spot on
PhillipM said:
If people are using the kerbs and finding an advantage, your kerbs aren't harsh or slippery enough.
I don't think thats really the point. The point is that the new rules which explicitly allow kerbs to be used have little benefit and arguably a lot more dis-benefit.Bert
Exactly. This was pointed out a couple or 3 pages back but is easy to forget. In some cases the new rules may allow one to drive wider for the simple reason that the kerbs are outside of the white lines and under the old easy to understand rules it was all about keeping some of the car inside those lines. The new ruling is confused, ill thought out and practically impossible to police. A simple example; consider the thin concrete unpainted rumble strips around Castle Combe in several places. From inside the car you can feel it when you get a wheel on those but are we seriously saying that the marshalls around the track are going to be able to reliable spot and note a car putting a wheel on those strips? Or are we now saying those flat little unpainted strips are now kerbs?
It's going to be a nightmare for the COCs trying to enforce this. Lap times will be significantly slower. Less overtaking opportunities. Everyone will have to relearn lines.
If this is really about grass seed and landscaping - why not put grasscrete on those areas and enforce the 2 wheels off rules
The new rule means if you put a wheel over the edge of the curb you'll get a warning, repeat this and you'll get warnings etc and then penalties.
We've always been allowed to use some of the curb and we will continue to be able to do so. The old rule insisted that we kept one wheel within the white lines at all times. The white lines run along the tarmac, not the outside edge of the curb. Hence, with the old rule if you put all four wheels on the curb without having one inside the white line you were deemed to have left the track.
We've always been allowed to use some of the curb and we will continue to be able to do so. The old rule insisted that we kept one wheel within the white lines at all times. The white lines run along the tarmac, not the outside edge of the curb. Hence, with the old rule if you put all four wheels on the curb without having one inside the white line you were deemed to have left the track.
I was marshaling at Donington last weekend and I was posted at the Esses (using GP circuit) and I decided I would try and practice the 1WO rule. If more than 3 cars came through at a time it was impossible to keep track of where everyone's inside wheels were placed while trying to read the numbers and also ensure that no-one was spinning off towards the post.
During the Scottish Legends (fantastic btw) the first few laps were hectic with 35 cars on grid and even by the end of the race we still had packs of 10 battling it out through the Esses. This rule cannot be judged fairly and equally as we (the marshals) will always miss some car numbers or infringements.
If this goes ahead I think a lot of marshals will ignore most of the minor cases of 1WO, especially when cars are in groups and a good battle is raging.
During the Scottish Legends (fantastic btw) the first few laps were hectic with 35 cars on grid and even by the end of the race we still had packs of 10 battling it out through the Esses. This rule cannot be judged fairly and equally as we (the marshals) will always miss some car numbers or infringements.
If this goes ahead I think a lot of marshals will ignore most of the minor cases of 1WO, especially when cars are in groups and a good battle is raging.
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