MSV Team Trophy & Trackday Trophy 2014

MSV Team Trophy & Trackday Trophy 2014

Author
Discussion

steeviegeebies

196 posts

144 months

Saturday 8th November 2014
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carl_w said:
don't get the point of this. All this tells you is the power at the time it was tested. If that's not while it's at the track, you could have fiddled with it after getting it dyno'd and before taking it to the track.
We - drivers - all want dyno testing at the track to keep the racing fair. MSV has strict park ferme rules, so you couldn't fiddle with your car after quali or race on the day/s when they have a RR there. One year they had the RR at 2 rounds and nobody knew. Perfect - that's how it should be done!

fiveoclockhero1

Original Poster:

672 posts

183 months

Saturday 8th November 2014
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steeviegeebies said:
so you couldn't fiddle with your car after quali or race on the day/s when they have a RR there.
Switchable dual maps with a hidden switch. If they're going to power test at the circuit they need to look for these too.

djroadboy

1,173 posts

235 months

Saturday 8th November 2014
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fiveoclockhero1 said:
steeviegeebies said:
so you couldn't fiddle with your car after quali or race on the day/s when they have a RR there.
Switchable dual maps with a hidden switch. If they're going to power test at the circuit they need to look for these too.
Almost impossible to police unless they add to the regs that the ECU can only hold one map and they have all the necessary software available to interogate everyone's ECU to check this. Can't see that happening.

Dan

steeviegeebies

196 posts

144 months

Sunday 9th November 2014
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I'd be all for that. Especially for turbo charged cars which can modify boost. Don't know how hard it is to do, or what's needed, or how much it'd cost though! If MSV made TT a graduate championship from TDT series then maybe they could up the registration fee a bit to cover surprise dyno and ECU checks at a number of events. They could still award the usual class awards on the day, but it'd add big interest and probably result in full grids throughout the season. I can't see any other mixed class championship that covers cars up to 200bhp/ton, but it'd have to be tightly policed to give it credibility.

jj.

544 posts

269 months

Sunday 9th November 2014
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MR2 - Yep, that's us. We were politely asked that if we wanted to do any more rounds (after Brands), we would have to provide another dyno run. After our outright race win at Snett, and lap times compared to the rest of the class D runners, our car had raised some suspicion in the paddock - straight after the Brands race.

We came in just under 3BHP than less than our original dyno. And trust me when I say, you have never met a couple of non mechanic interested racers in your life, we pay some to prep the car every few races, and we polish, fuel, change tyres & pressures and anti-roll bar settings, that's it.

I did my first alternator belt replacement re-fitment back in the summer after a trip into some gravel, I was quite pleased with myself.

Look at any of our vids on 'youtube', you'll see we our out powered by the other classes on the straights, the Clio's, BMW's, Mini's, watch as we come onto the straight at Brands, we get left behind.

But, just look at our corner speed compared to some of the high classes, we have to maintain it, the reason why we seem to get through tyres. I've heard people say they make a set last a season, we don't.

It was quite flattering really, until that other Class E !!! MR2 at Snetterton almost beat us, now that's got to be suspicious biggrinbiggrinbyebye (Hello Adrian!).
jj

staceyboy

77 posts

168 months

Tuesday 11th November 2014
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That Snetterton race early in the season, no offence to you, was there for the taking. They shouldn't have judged you on that. They should have judged everyone else for being rubbish. We finished second overall from the very back.

It took me a while to pass you at Brands GP, but it was under power that I got past. I think it's the perfect car for class D. That's all. Plus you are both quick.

Steve with the 968 took some grief for putting his class B car on pole for that race. He's had loads of experience round the GP loop plus he's also quick.

I think they should request video to watch before suggesting your power/weight is a bit hooky.

djroadboy

1,173 posts

235 months

Tuesday 11th November 2014
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staceyboy said:
I think they should request video to watch before suggesting your power/weight is a bit hooky.
This, definitely. It should be fairly easy to tell from onboard footage.

Dan

lewisbatch

111 posts

122 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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Out of pure curiosity, anyone know what engine the Corsa in TDT is running? has some impressive top speeds.

fiveoclockhero1

Original Poster:

672 posts

183 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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lewisbatch said:
Out of pure curiosity, anyone know what engine the Corsa in TDT is running? has some impressive top speeds.
Think I heard its a red top on carbs or throttle bodies

Trek930

129 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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To comply with the rules do you have to run the original type of engine for the car? I.e. you cant run an Audi 1.8T engine in a VX220? Just wondering if an Audi 5.2 V10 would fit in a Mondeo :-)!

staceyboy

77 posts

168 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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Don't think so. I've seen an A35 with a Puma engine at one point...

fiveoclockhero1

Original Poster:

672 posts

183 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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Trek930 said:
To comply with the rules do you have to run the original type of engine for the car? I.e. you cant run an Audi 1.8T engine in a VX220? Just wondering if an Audi 5.2 V10 would fit in a Mondeo :-)!
5. 10. 1. All entries must be powered by a production based car engine that is fitted with a rev limiter.

Makes no mention of it having to be an engine fitted to that model of car as, I believe, CSCC do. K20 in the VX next year then.

Trek930

129 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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fiveoclockhero1 said:
Trek930 said:
To comply with the rules do you have to run the original type of engine for the car? I.e. you cant run an Audi 1.8T engine in a VX220? Just wondering if an Audi 5.2 V10 would fit in a Mondeo :-)!
5. 10. 1. All entries must be powered by a production based car engine that is fitted with a rev limiter.

Makes no mention of it having to be an engine fitted to that model of car as, I believe, CSCC do. K20 in the VX next year then.
Woohoo, Ill keep the v6 in the front and have the v10 in the back!

Soul Reaver

499 posts

191 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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Other series make you run a DL1 and submit the disc for inspection. Seems a cheaper option than dyno at rounds to me!

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Wednesday 12th November 2014
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I don't know much about the DL1 apart from the fact there always used to be controversy with them in Britcar a few years ago but I can tell you why the Porsche 944turbo was banned from the PCGB club series a few years ago as an eg of how clever people circumvent power to weight testing and dynos.

944T 's in PCGB were class 1 cars with a given min weight. So far so good and easy to weigh. They were rated at 250bhp + or - 5% (I think) and all had to be measured on Bob Watson's rolling road in Oxfordshire. On the RR they were all measured correctly but on track a couple appeared to have immense power and straight line speed, back to the RR but all was within tolerance.

Same thing kept happening and every time they were measured they were correct.

PCGB kep inspecting them for hidden switches to switch maps but found nothing. They were convinced the 944T's were cheating but could prove nothing. In the end it became easier to ban them from the club series and only allow them in the Porsche Open Series.

Several years later the engine specialist that worked on the relevant cars told me that they had a rotary switch on the front wheels, hence on the RR all was well but on track when the front wheels were moving another map kicked in to give 300bhp. No one ever found it and that's why clever people can always find a way round power to weight if they really want to!!!

Soul Reaver

499 posts

191 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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That's very clever but looking on the ecu you would see both maps. Of course looking on 30 to 40 ECU's takes ages I guess and therin lies the problem!

steeviegeebies

196 posts

144 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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They'd only probably need to randomly check the top 3 in class after quali, and any others in top 3 in race. Plus, any that look suspicious. Say, 10 cars per meeting. I think we still need a couple of surprise dyno rounds as well. Eg what if a turbo car had its boost turned down for its pre-season test but turned up in a race? As long as there is a ban on boost dials inside the car the driver couldn't turn it back down in PF (and they don't allow mechanics in PF anyway). A combo of map and dyno checks should work well, overcome Andy's earlier point about hidden map switches and would be belts and further enhance the credibility of the regs.

Q Would people object to paying a slightly higher registration fee eg +£25 if it guaranteed 2 surprise dyno's during the season? I'd happily pay my share.

fiveoclockhero1

Original Poster:

672 posts

183 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
quotequote all
steeviegeebies said:
Q Would people object to paying a slightly higher registration fee eg +£25 if it guaranteed 2 surprise dyno's during the season? I'd happily pay my share.
I'd pay

djroadboy

1,173 posts

235 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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I'd pay too. The registration is cheap enough as it is.

Something needs to be done.

Dan

steeviegeebies

196 posts

144 months

Thursday 20th November 2014
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Let's ask Lee-Anne about it on Saturday. Maybe she can raise it at the briefing on both days.