MSV Team Trophy & Trackday Trophy 2014
Discussion
Trek930 said:
I agree, Im aware I run at the bottom end of Class B but he passed me like I was standing still!
And me and I'm at the top of class B, mind you I had a class C BMW outdrag me well down the straight also!! There was a lot of contact and a lot of reckless moves on Saturday. I drove in the two 20 minute allcomer races at Snetterton 3 weeks ago and I had no contact nor did I see any.fiveoclockhero1 said:
And me and I'm at the top of class B, mind you I had a class C BMW outdrag me well down the straight also!! There was a lot of contact and a lot of reckless moves on Saturday. I drove in the two 20 minute allcomer races at Snetterton 3 weeks ago and I had no contact nor did I see any.
I think some people may be stretching the rules a bit! I would call it something else but we're all out on a Saturday to have some fun and pretend to be F1 drivers (or is that just me?!). However I still take it seriously enough that I want everyone to be abiding to the same set of rules, Im sure Im not the only one who couldve put a deposit down on a house with the amount Ive ended up spending doing this! I was also passed by a BMW M3 along a straight with at least a 10mph speed difference that I passed with ease at Cadwell.I read this back and I dont like the fact I sound petty but Ive changed from looking forward to stepping up to the Trackday Team Series next year to looking at it with a fair amount of trepidation.
MSVR and the MSA reserve the right to do spot checks at the owners cost dont they?!
I was with the chap who came second in the race, class A BMW 3.0 ltr, I would bet my house and pension that he is 100 per cent complying with the rules for his class.
I was also surprised at the pace of the White Porsche as a class B car, their was also a Black Peugeot 206 that was flying on Saturday, also a class B car, I did hear some banter at the prize giving about some body needing to sort out their power to weight ratio.
At the end of the day it is down to the organizer to check the top running cars to see if they are within the rules.
I was also surprised at the pace of the White Porsche as a class B car, their was also a Black Peugeot 206 that was flying on Saturday, also a class B car, I did hear some banter at the prize giving about some body needing to sort out their power to weight ratio.
At the end of the day it is down to the organizer to check the top running cars to see if they are within the rules.
jeff666 said:
I was with the chap who came second in the race, class A BMW 3.0 ltr, I would bet my house and pension that he is 100 per cent complying with the rules for his class.
I was also surprised at the pace of the White Porsche as a class B car, their was also a Black Peugeot 206 that was flying on Saturday, also a class B car, I did hear some banter at the prize giving about some body needing to sort out their power to weight ratio.
At the end of the day it is down to the organizer to check the top running cars to see if they are within the rules.
Hey Jeff, I would expect a Class A car to whip my ass round any track so I have no issues with that at all. I know that fiveoclockhero1 runs at the top of Class B and in the times that he has passed me in previous races he incrementally pulls away rather than disappears out of sight by the next corner! As fiveoclockhero stated he was outdragged by a Class C car which is strange, not so much for me as Im at the bottom of Class B so I regularly get beaten by better Class C cars (nothing to do with the driver of course!) I managed to keep that 205 behind me for a few corners! I was also surprised at the pace of the White Porsche as a class B car, their was also a Black Peugeot 206 that was flying on Saturday, also a class B car, I did hear some banter at the prize giving about some body needing to sort out their power to weight ratio.
At the end of the day it is down to the organizer to check the top running cars to see if they are within the rules.
As you say its down to the organiser to sort these things out, but if it had been a Trackday Trophy grid Id probably said something.
I know for a fact that the white Porsche that won class b went to Trackactive in Leicester on the Friday before for a power run. You need to bare in mind that Steve has done three races round that circuit between last years race and this weekend. I went two second quicker than last year too.
The speed you do down the straight has an awful lot to do with how you exit the previous corner. As you all know.
The speed you do down the straight has an awful lot to do with how you exit the previous corner. As you all know.
fiveoclockhero1 said:
And me and I'm at the top of class B, mind you I had a class C BMW outdrag me well down the straight also!! There was a lot of contact and a lot of reckless moves on Saturday. I drove in the two 20 minute allcomer races at Snetterton 3 weeks ago and I had no contact nor did I see any.
Good move round the outside of me at Paddock Hill saturday by the way 
I covered the inside a little too much probably, but it was a good one.
As for being outdragged. You get measured for bhp. Not torque. Surely that makes a big difference when you get to three figure speeds?
Not sure which class B Elise is being referred to but last year I qualified 3rd in the MSVT race on the GP circuit in my 968, on tyres that had done 7 long races and numerous test and track days. This year's winning Ginetta was behind me on the grid last year as well. Nobody made any fuss then. Podium prep have a skill for building great handling race cars, and have spent 2 years getting this one's handling set up to what I can only describe as sublime. It has no aero and a tired old standard engine with less than 200bhp at the wheels - per a dyno test at Tractive done the Friday morning before Saturday's race. It is in the upper part class B with me inside, without any ballast.
Also, Andy who runs Podium Prep is an MSA race instructor. We spend time studying race data and comparing laps to optimise lines, brake points, etc. I've already done 1.5hrs of racing on Brands GP this year, and know the track really well which makes a massive difference, but - and be honest - did you spend all Friday evening studying your last Brands GP race in an effort to optimise your lap times? I can also tell you from my data exactly where the time was gained for my 1m44.4. Firstly, I had brand new tyres fitted (1 heat cycle before qualifying). Grip levels were massively better and It was all about being quicker through the corners. Secondly I made sure I was first out and had a clear track for qualifying. My biggest gains were:
Paddock Hill bend apex speed 79.5mph vs 72.2 mph, gaining 0.45s in that sector
Corner exit speed from Hawthorns was 90.05mph vs 85.69mph, worth 0.36s in that sector
Faster cornering speed through Sheene meant I gained 0.27s into Sterlings
Apex speed through Clearways/Clark was 73.4mph vs 70.8mph, worth 0.25 by the time I got tot the line.
The other 0.37 was made up of little gains and losses here and there.
There were no gains in power or acceleration on the car, in fact the car has lost power since last year. The differences between pole and 9th (what last year's time would have got me this year) were better track positioning, later braking and faster apex speeds, leading to faster exit speed which is worth big time gains at the end of the next straight. I'd be happy to share my data & videos with you at Silverstone. Come look me up - you all know that I drive that white 968.
Also, Andy who runs Podium Prep is an MSA race instructor. We spend time studying race data and comparing laps to optimise lines, brake points, etc. I've already done 1.5hrs of racing on Brands GP this year, and know the track really well which makes a massive difference, but - and be honest - did you spend all Friday evening studying your last Brands GP race in an effort to optimise your lap times? I can also tell you from my data exactly where the time was gained for my 1m44.4. Firstly, I had brand new tyres fitted (1 heat cycle before qualifying). Grip levels were massively better and It was all about being quicker through the corners. Secondly I made sure I was first out and had a clear track for qualifying. My biggest gains were:
Paddock Hill bend apex speed 79.5mph vs 72.2 mph, gaining 0.45s in that sector
Corner exit speed from Hawthorns was 90.05mph vs 85.69mph, worth 0.36s in that sector
Faster cornering speed through Sheene meant I gained 0.27s into Sterlings
Apex speed through Clearways/Clark was 73.4mph vs 70.8mph, worth 0.25 by the time I got tot the line.
The other 0.37 was made up of little gains and losses here and there.
There were no gains in power or acceleration on the car, in fact the car has lost power since last year. The differences between pole and 9th (what last year's time would have got me this year) were better track positioning, later braking and faster apex speeds, leading to faster exit speed which is worth big time gains at the end of the next straight. I'd be happy to share my data & videos with you at Silverstone. Come look me up - you all know that I drive that white 968.
staceyboy said:
I know for a fact that the white Porsche that won class b went to Trackactive in Leicester on the Friday before for a power run. You need to bare in mind that Steve has done three races round that circuit between last years race and this weekend. I went two second quicker than last year too.
The speed you do down the straight has an awful lot to do with how you exit the previous corner. As you all know.
Spot on Staceyboy. That's exactly where the time gains came from. Thanks for taking so much sense!The speed you do down the straight has an awful lot to do with how you exit the previous corner. As you all know.
..,.I mean talking! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/2.gif
staceyboy said:
I'm not saying folk don't cheat, but there are so many variables it makes it a lottery when it comes to pointing the finger. It would help if MSV put their hand in their pocket and brought the dyno to a few more rounds....
This, weighing at the end of the race is almost pointless, I dont know why they botherHi Steve,
No offence intended. It was my Elise that was referenced from last year. On the lap that the gear cable failed on the Vbox was showing 2.1 seconds up on the fastest lap so far so I reckon we would easily have got into the 1.43s if we had continued in the race. We were running on 5 year old Kumho V70s and had been dyno'd at 152@the hubs at TDI the day before the race. Neither of us had ever driven the GP circuit before either. Brands GP is a power circuit so not ideal for the Elise.
You've clearly invested heavily in making your car and yourself competitive so your lap time is less suspicious to me now.
Hopefully I'll be on the grid next year in Class A or B and look forwar to some good battles.
Apologies again for any offence caused.
Dan
No offence intended. It was my Elise that was referenced from last year. On the lap that the gear cable failed on the Vbox was showing 2.1 seconds up on the fastest lap so far so I reckon we would easily have got into the 1.43s if we had continued in the race. We were running on 5 year old Kumho V70s and had been dyno'd at 152@the hubs at TDI the day before the race. Neither of us had ever driven the GP circuit before either. Brands GP is a power circuit so not ideal for the Elise.
You've clearly invested heavily in making your car and yourself competitive so your lap time is less suspicious to me now.
Hopefully I'll be on the grid next year in Class A or B and look forwar to some good battles.
Apologies again for any offence caused.
Dan
I can see why folk get weighed to be fair. I'd like to think 95% of folk don't try and cheat. But, your weight could be a back of the fag packet calculation, so it's useful. People do sometimes make an honest mistake. Even in racing.... You can also see how much you could take off your car to get further up the class.
Hi Dan,
Thank you - apology fully accepted and I look froward to racing with you next year too.
I love the MSVT power/weight rule - its what makes Trackday & Team Trophy the best racing of its type, keeps costs down and keeps me coming back year after year. Over the winter, Andy's going to give the engine a refresh/rebuild to make it a bit more competitive in AMOC that should also take it into in class A for MSVT. Until then, it's definitely a class B car.
Steve
Thank you - apology fully accepted and I look froward to racing with you next year too.
I love the MSVT power/weight rule - its what makes Trackday & Team Trophy the best racing of its type, keeps costs down and keeps me coming back year after year. Over the winter, Andy's going to give the engine a refresh/rebuild to make it a bit more competitive in AMOC that should also take it into in class A for MSVT. Until then, it's definitely a class B car.
Steve
The power to weight system is interesting but its a strange one for me. I need a certain amount of power to be competitive against cars with bigger engines but then its actually a struggle to make the car heavy enough.
As I said I got dyno'd at 152@ the hubs last year and had to put 50kgs ballast in the car to make the power to weight limit. The new car will be even lighter and 152@ the hubs is not enough. You an do a really quick lap time but you can't race people with over 200bhp. You just get mullered on the straights.
Think I'll be aiming for ~170@ the hubs but the car's probably gonna weigh around 650kgs sans driver so ballast will be required. Even with my fat gut in it.
Cheers
Dan
As I said I got dyno'd at 152@ the hubs last year and had to put 50kgs ballast in the car to make the power to weight limit. The new car will be even lighter and 152@ the hubs is not enough. You an do a really quick lap time but you can't race people with over 200bhp. You just get mullered on the straights.
Think I'll be aiming for ~170@ the hubs but the car's probably gonna weigh around 650kgs sans driver so ballast will be required. Even with my fat gut in it.
Cheers
Dan
Hi all,
Just registered to give my 2 pence worth
I understand all the frustration with class this overtaking class that and sometimes it can look suspect. But as said above corner exit speed makes such a huge difference. And although the Porsche 968 may have no aero downforce it defo looks a lot less draggy than my block of a 205. Also having done data engineering for GT3 teams I know how powerful this along with driver coaching via that data can be in gaining lap time.
So all in all I'd say I'm defending Mr porker. But one thing I would like to say is that I have had the same engine for a couple years now running the same mapping, it has no target maps, just a set fuel and ignition map. I have been tested by TDi 2x once getting 162bhp. At donnington last year I got spot checked by tractive at 155bhp. And for this year despite losing 2-3mph at brands hatch indy I got 167bhp. Being such a light car this equates to a 64kg weight spread. Thats massive! Too massive and MSVR should look into this or insist only one company is used in my opinion.
So if I was able to use my tractive power curve and either take 64kg out or up the power (god knows how without major work) straight line speeds could be more comparable(maybe) to some other class B cars. And I'm sure many competitors suffer the same discrepancies.
To get off the downer... brands was epic for me. Team Trophy but only 45mins is exactly what I want! Loads more cars of the same kinda speed up in class b and A. was a really good race, shame about the beemer and seat having a coming together as was slowly reeling them in with the yellow BMW along with me, could have been some epic racing.
Cheers,
Henry.
Just registered to give my 2 pence worth
I understand all the frustration with class this overtaking class that and sometimes it can look suspect. But as said above corner exit speed makes such a huge difference. And although the Porsche 968 may have no aero downforce it defo looks a lot less draggy than my block of a 205. Also having done data engineering for GT3 teams I know how powerful this along with driver coaching via that data can be in gaining lap time.
So all in all I'd say I'm defending Mr porker. But one thing I would like to say is that I have had the same engine for a couple years now running the same mapping, it has no target maps, just a set fuel and ignition map. I have been tested by TDi 2x once getting 162bhp. At donnington last year I got spot checked by tractive at 155bhp. And for this year despite losing 2-3mph at brands hatch indy I got 167bhp. Being such a light car this equates to a 64kg weight spread. Thats massive! Too massive and MSVR should look into this or insist only one company is used in my opinion.
So if I was able to use my tractive power curve and either take 64kg out or up the power (god knows how without major work) straight line speeds could be more comparable(maybe) to some other class B cars. And I'm sure many competitors suffer the same discrepancies.
To get off the downer... brands was epic for me. Team Trophy but only 45mins is exactly what I want! Loads more cars of the same kinda speed up in class b and A. was a really good race, shame about the beemer and seat having a coming together as was slowly reeling them in with the yellow BMW along with me, could have been some epic racing.
Cheers,
Henry.
Dan, I bet you're already on this:
Assuming you weigh 100kg, then 170bhp in your 650kg Elise means that you'd exceed the 200bhp/ton series limit even if you carry the max 80kg ballast (you'd have 204bhp/ton). However, if your car had a sequential gearbox or non standard aero - just think of all that downforce advantage for Mark's VX220 - you could carry an extra 25kg of ballast and come in at 198bhp/ton. If you're a similar weight to me then you'll need both the aero and the sequential box!
Henry, you drove really quickly on Saturday on a track that doesn't really suit your car - I bet you can't wait to race at Cadwell and kick our butts! Regarding dyno variability, my car was tested on a rolling road a few weeks before Friday's test at Tracktive. The results were within 4bhp so I can't really say I've seen a big variance, but I don't know how often they need calibrating, etc, to ensure a valid reading.
Steve
Assuming you weigh 100kg, then 170bhp in your 650kg Elise means that you'd exceed the 200bhp/ton series limit even if you carry the max 80kg ballast (you'd have 204bhp/ton). However, if your car had a sequential gearbox or non standard aero - just think of all that downforce advantage for Mark's VX220 - you could carry an extra 25kg of ballast and come in at 198bhp/ton. If you're a similar weight to me then you'll need both the aero and the sequential box!
Henry, you drove really quickly on Saturday on a track that doesn't really suit your car - I bet you can't wait to race at Cadwell and kick our butts! Regarding dyno variability, my car was tested on a rolling road a few weeks before Friday's test at Tracktive. The results were within 4bhp so I can't really say I've seen a big variance, but I don't know how often they need calibrating, etc, to ensure a valid reading.
Steve
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