Inconsistent observers

[Hollowpockets]

Is this a fairly common problem?

During the weekend I won both races in the first round of the SMRC sports/saloon cars at Knockhill, only to be disqualified in race 2 for passing a back marker under a yellow flag that I missed (raining and braking from 140mph to 35mph is why I didn't see it).

Now I've seen the footage I don't disagree with my punishment of exclusion from results (4 points is a joke though) BUT I've now also seen footage from the second place car, who also passed the yellow then overtook a back marker on the haipin.

This inconsistency really gets up my goat but I'm guessing I'm one of many on the wrong side of the law.

The worst part of it all, I didn't realise I only had 30 minutes to lodge an appeal. I told them verbally I would then I waited till I had the video footage to contact them.

Not interested is the result, case closed!

[covboy]

Unfortunately, Observers are like football referee’s – They only have one set of eyes. Odds are he was writing down your details when the second offence occurred.

As for the time limit on the appeal, it’s another case of not being aware of the detail Blue Book regs I’m afraid. It’s surprising the amount of Drivers who fall foul of some of the more basic rules.

[wadsapple]

Bad Luck Man but on the two top steps

[markbates]

What exactly did you plan on appealing against? You made a point of saying that you did it, so the video footage would show that as well. If you appealed and put your £220 to speak to the stewards what did you plan on your defence. They can hardly turn over such a clear cut decision.
The 4 points is a blue book standard for exclusions of this nature, and the exclusion paperwork would have had details of the appeals procedure and time limits on it.
Sometimes you have to just suck it up and move on.

[Kinkell]

I find that to be extremely harsh. I was racing in the classics at the weekend and was passed under a yellow when the Ferrari was in the gravel. I didn't protest as I was slower than the car that passed me. In another incident a fellow racer was demoted 1 place for passing under a yellow.
Disqualification is over the top as I just got 6 points for passing under a red flag a few seasons ago.

[Hollowpockets]

markbates said:

What exactly did you plan on appealing against? You made a point of saying that you did it, so the video footage would show that as well. If you appealed and put your £220 to speak to the stewards what did you plan on your defence. They can hardly turn over such a clear cut decision.
The 4 points is a blue book standard for exclusions of this nature, and the exclusion paperwork would have had details of the appeals procedure and time limits on it.
Sometimes you have to just suck it up and move on.

The observer report showed I passed 3 cars - not according to the video, the observer report showed a stationary car and marshals on the track and they commented that this was dangerous - not according to the video there was no stationary car or marshals on track (the flags should have been down!), The video also showed the car behind me passed under yellows and got nothing!

The notice did not have details of appeals process or time limits on it.

The appeal/protest would have been about inaccurate reporting (exaggeration) and inconsistency with the 2nd place car doing the exact same as I did! and as my first offence I would have hoped they might have given me an official warning perhaps and the the same for the 2nd place guy, then leave the results as they were.

I've sucked it up now and I'm moving on, GT cup in 2 weeks at Donny!!

Edited by Hollowpockets on Friday 11th April 13:01

[Kinkell]

I've been caught a few times and am now very alert to the flags, you live and learn. I also take 10 minutes to calm myself after the race before taking action against anybody because the madrenalin soon exits my body and my personable persona returns.

[37chevy]

I think it's very difficult to forget that observers/marshals don't have the luxury of onboard cameras. They have to make a snap decision in the heat of the moment. It's also incredibly risky working trackside, so When you overtake under yellow, it really REALLY puts people at risk.....think what it would be like standing in the breakdown lane of the motorway, then double the speed....pretty scary!

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, and I know conditions can be far from ideal from spotting yellow flags, however they are there to protect drivers being rescued and marshals who are dealing with the incident. With the new double waved yellow rules there really is no excuse for overtaking under yellows

[tapkaJohnD]

HP,
The above posts have been quite forgiving - if you had posted on ten-tenths where the Marshals gather, you would have got a lot more stick!

Like football or cricket, it's only major league games that have the luxury of a camera umpire. Play to the whistle, and accept the umpire's decision as a gentleman should.
Stiff upper lip and all that! Pip,pip!
John

[woof]

At a BRSCC race last October at Donington the COC took an odd decision to throw yellows across 3/4 of the circuit which lead to half the field over taking under yellows. ( it should have been red flagged )

I don't think anyone got any type of penalty. And the COC actually said it was OK to overtake under yellows under some circumstances ?!

[Dave Brand]

woof said:

At a BRSCC race last October at Donington the COC took an odd decision to throw yellows across 3/4 of the circuit which lead to half the field over taking under yellows. ( it should have been red flagged )

I don't think anyone got any type of penalty. And the COC actually said it was OK to overtake under yellows under some circumstances ?!

I can't really comment on the first incident but I can think of a few occasions where as a Post Chief I've been happy to continue under yellows rather than curtail a race. It's very often down to the judgement of an individual Post Chief (observer) & the clerks' confidence in that individual's judgement - the final decision always rests with the Clerk, but, in the words of the Blue Book, "observers are the eyes & ears of the Clerk of the Course". Bottom line is you guys have paid a lot of money to race, we're there to ensure that you get as much racing time as possible.

There can be mitigating circumstances for overtaking under yellow. Sometimes it's the safer option. Typical scenario: a group of cars is closing rapidly on a backmarker who sees a yellow flag & brakes hard. What's the safer course of action for the leader of the group - carry on with the overtake & slow down in a controlled manner or brake hard to avoid the overtake & risk a multi-car pile-up?

This is the form infringements are reported on:

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/Post_...

Note the possible choices of statement under "Flag Infringement".

I must say that I find the general tone of this thread encouraging. Most drivers seem to appreciate just how difficult the observer's job can be at times.

[onomatopoeia]

Hollowpockets said:

The worst part of it all, I didn't realise I only had 30 minutes to lodge an appeal.

That limit in the book you get with your competition licence. C6.3 (subsection g, I'd guess from your description, racing is not my discipline) would apply here. C6.2 ("Appeals must be submitted in writing ...") is also relevant, since you mention telling them you were going to appeal but not actually doing so. You need to be familiar with the parts of it that are relevant to your discipline. Section C is relevant to everyone.

If as a competitor you want to go judicial at an event you need to lean heavily on the contents of section C to make sure you do it properly. All the information you need is in there. The process is not complex and at protest and appeal level is designed to be straightforward for ordinary people to take part in without specialist advice.

Over the last 20 years I have been at times competitor, marshal, event secretary, club steward and licensed clerk of the course (speed), and on occasion done all of those things in the same season. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of familiarity with the contents of the blue book and knowing how to navigate your way around it - this applies to everyone that signs on at an event, whether competitor or official.

[TwoLeadFeet]

Dave Brand said:

This is the form infringements are reported on:

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/Post_...

Note the possible choices of statement under "Flag Infringement".

I haven't closely looked at this form before so was interested to see the first statement (overtaken driver signals the overtaking driver to pass) which IMHO appears to be more of a mitigation, rather than the other 3 which seem far more serious, and would presumably give justification for the CoC to up the penalty the more of those boxes that were ticked?

I know it’s not an accepted mitigation as I was penalised for just that scenario a few years ago (slower car in front during an open practice session) and felt pretty aggrieved at the time

[Dave Brand]

TwoLeadFeet said:

I haven't closely looked at this form before so was interested to see the first statement (overtaken driver signals the overtaking driver to pass) which IMHO appears to be more of a mitigation, rather than the other 3 which seem far more serious, and would presumably give justification for the CoC to up the penalty the more of those boxes that were ticked?

The second one would apply in the scenario I postulated (!) in my previous post.

The third one helps in disputes over whether or not the driver had time to react to the flag. I had one at Mallory a few years ago where I put "2 laps" in that box . . .

The fourth one is a definite no-no. Fortunately instances of injury to marshals are few & far between. Let's keep it that way.

Overtaking under yellow, whatever the circumstances, is a serious matter.

[Drumroll]

Two things I do not necessarily see it as inconsistent. It is all about being sure, if an observer is not sure then he can hardly report something as fact.

As to not appealing in time then tough on you, it is quite clear in the blue book what the appeals procedure is, if you don't know that there is only one person to blame and that is the driver/entrant.

[grumpy52]

If an observer doesn't see something he cannot report on it .
If part of his crew see something they can report it , many times the flag marshalls see things .
On some sections it is very difficult to see everything that occurs, on a hairpin for instance trying to see cars into and out of the corner .
Occasionally the observer may be too close to the action to have the best view for seeing driving infringements.
Yellow flag infringements make the marshalls and intervention staff very twitchy !!

[Kinkell]

I attended the WEC Silverstone at the weekend as a spectator and saw the White flag used on numerous occasions as opposed to the common or garden Yellow at club meets. It was raised when a car was slow on track and allowed passing without a reduction in speed although a yellow was sometimes used simultaneously causing a bit of confusion for me. Most popular flag was Blue due to the massive speed differences. Superb racing.
Anyone know how the OP Hp got on at Oulton?

[Dave Brand]

Kinkell said:

I attended the WEC Silverstone at the weekend as a spectator and saw the White flag used on numerous occasions as opposed to the common or garden Yellow at club meets. It was raised when a car was slow on track and allowed passing without a reduction in speed although a yellow was sometimes used simultaneously causing a bit of confusion for me.

The white flag is used in club racing. Its meaning is "slow moving vehicle on track" so it can be used for a competing vehicle which is moving significantly slower than its normal speed. The use of white & yellow together is acceptable when non-competing vehicle (e.g. rescue unit, recovery vehicle) is on track going to the incident covered by the yellow flag.

Edited by Dave Brand on Thursday 24th April 10:28

[Graham]

someone else who hasnt read the flag rules lol... I had a driver the other weekend who though he was getting a telling off from the marshall as they waved a yellow and red stripy flag at him


still at least he saw the flag unlike another driver who not only missed the flag but the oil slick which he drove straight over and wondered why the car didnt turn....

[Kinkell]

Dave Brand said:

The white flag is used in club racing. Its meaning is "slow moving vehicle on track" so it can be used for a competing vehicle which is moving [b]significantly[b/] slower than its normal speed. The use of white & yellow together is acceptable when non-competing vehicle (e.g. rescue unit, recovery vehicle) is on track going to the incident covered by the yellow flag.

Possibly used more in endurance racing due to their nature. Can't recall seeing it since passing my Ards, racing at 5 British circuits in 87 races including a 50 lapper. I would welcome its wider use, let's see it more often.