Inconsistent observers

[PabloTheOrange]

Kinkell said:

Dave Brand said:

The white flag is used in club racing. Its meaning is "slow moving vehicle on track" so it can be used for a competing vehicle which is moving [b]significantly[b/] slower than its normal speed. The use of white & yellow together is acceptable when non-competing vehicle (e.g. rescue unit, recovery vehicle) is on track going to the incident covered by the yellow flag.

Possibly used more in endurance racing due to their nature. Can't recall seeing it since passing my Ards, racing at 5 British circuits in 87 races including a 50 lapper. I would welcome its wider use, let's see it more often.

It's used a lot in Le Mans-style racing because the speed differential between a GTE Am car and an LMP1-H is normally 20-ish seconds on a lap of Silverstone's GP circuit. If a GTE car is on a slow lap then an Audi R18 or Porsche 919 wound-up to 11 will probably trip over the slow GT car!

[Dave Brand]

What we seem to be saying here is that in FIA races the white flag is used to indicate a slower car moving at its normal racing speed? If so, FIA usage differs from MSA usage! At an MSA-licenced meeting I would neither ask nor expect flaggies to white flag a slow car - the appropriate flag for that situation is the blue. The white is only used for a slow moving vehicle, e.g. a service vehicle, a car with mechanical problems driving slowly back to the pit lane, etc.

As for speed differentials, they don't come much bigger than the CNC Heads Championship - can be up to 20 seconds or so on Oulton International circuit; think ex-DTM Astra & almost bog-standard XR2. . .

[refoman2]

Hollowpockets said:

Is this a fairly common problem?

During the weekend I won both races in the first round of the SMRC sports/saloon cars at Knockhill, only to be disqualified in race 2 for passing a back marker under a yellow flag that I missed (raining and braking from 140mph to 35mph is why I didn't see it).

Now I've seen the footage I don't disagree with my punishment of exclusion from results (4 points is a joke though) BUT I've now also seen footage from the second place car, who also passed the yellow then overtook a back marker on the haipin.

This inconsistency really gets up my goat but I'm guessing I'm one of many on the wrong side of the law.

The worst part of it all, I didn't realise I only had 30 minutes to lodge an appeal. I told them verbally I would then I waited till I had the video footage to contact them.

Not interested is the result, case closed!

the problem you have with most officials/observers is that the majority have never been a racer or even been round a race track at speed in the company of huge grids and don't really know what is a genuine incident as opposed to driver trying to get away with it incident.

I got called to the clerk a few years ago at Combe after I arrived at Quarry on the first lap on the inside on the grass have been side swiped onto it,i even offered to show the clerk the incar footage to show what happened but you couldn't believe the rubbish he was spouting! as I said to him,do you think I really wanted to arrive at Quarry on the grass on purpose?

[Drumroll]

So because I have never been a "driver" i know nothing about driving on a track is that what you are saying. Fine will all the marshals who have never held a competition licence please stand down now.

[37chevy]

refoman2 said:

the problem you have with most officials/observers is that the majority have never been a racer or even been round a race track at speed in the company of huge grids and don't really know what is a genuine incident as opposed to driver trying to get away with it incident.

I got called to the clerk a few years ago at Combe after I arrived at Quarry on the first lap on the inside on the grass have been side swiped onto it,i even offered to show the clerk the incar footage to show what happened but you couldn't believe the rubbish he was spouting! as I said to him,do you think I really wanted to arrive at Quarry on the grass on purpose?

Likewise the problem with most drivers is they have never been a marshal or observer so it's easy to sprout sh!te on the internet about incidents without knowing anything about then, how they are looked at/reported etc etc

I've marshalled, raced and spectate for over 20 years....you will find quite a few marshals who hold competition licences....we are at race tracks week in, week out looking at different cars going around corners lap after lap....trust me we know what an incident looks like

[woof]

Issues with observers and officials go up all the way to top FIA events.
Same goes for bad or dangerous drivers.

I guess the issue is that they can only report what they see (or not report it at all)
Over the 14 years I've had a licence - and the times that I've had incidents reported - I've shown the COC video and they've been thrown out.

But I do see the observers problem they have to deal with.

There was an incident at Zandvoort last year.
I was following 2 cars. It looked like car 2 had pushed car 1 off the track when I was following them and watching it in real time. And I was convinced of it. It was only after watching it on the video that I saw it was car 1 that pulled across and blocked that created the contact.

But then at Donington last year - a certain driver having said he would deliberately take me out of the race and later admitted in writing that they did exactly that, got clean away with it. No reprimand, no nothing and right in front of a marshals post. Personally I think someone like that should be banned for life. What if I had been injured or caused a multiple accident. £1200 worth of damage to my car from that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwMOy3FW3_0

[37chevy]

woof said:

Issues with observers and officials go up all the way to top FIA events.
Same goes for bad or dangerous drivers.

I guess the issue is that they can only report what they see (or not report it at all)
Over the 14 years I've had a licence - and the times that I've had incidents reported - I've shown the COC video and they've been thrown out.

But I do see the observers problem they have to deal with.

There was an incident at Zandvoort last year.
I was following 2 cars. It looked like car 2 had pushed car 1 off the track when I was following them and watching it in real time. And I was convinced of it. It was only after watching it on the video that I saw it was car 1 that pulled across and blocked that created the contact.

But then at Donington last year - a certain driver having said he would deliberately take me out of the race and later admitted in writing that they did exactly that, got clean away with it. No reprimand, no nothing and right in front of a marshals post. Personally I think someone like that should be banned for life. What if I had been injured or caused a multiple accident. £1200 worth of damage to my car from that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwMOy3FW3_0

Fully agree with you if it's intentional something should be done. The issue for observers is like you say we can only report FACT, we can't say he or she may have done this or had the intention of doing this.....while we both know that's probably a correct assumption the rules don't state that observers are allowed to mind read and tell the clerks exactly what was going on in a drivers head....hense it's usually black and white. The other thing to remember is that while things may appear to be right infront of observers it is often not the case, the offending car can be shielded by other cars in a pack or an observer could be looking at another car or incident a the same time....remember there's usually 30 cars out there an only 1 observer....they are susceptible to making a mistake just like the driver in the first place....we can't see everything so while it may seem inconsistent and in many ways it is, it can't be helped. This is one of the main reasons MSVR have brought in the pressure plates, it frees up the observers to do their main job which is keeping everyone on the track safe....not report writing as it has been in the past few years.

[woof]

I wouldn't want the job if they paid me - tough job and you'll always be pissing someone off !

Re the pressure plates at Graham Hill - we all know it's my pet hate
But I was watching the PCGB race on Saturday. I watching one car run consistently over the kerb. But he wasn't hitting the pressure strips so got away without a single warning.

Doesn't really work. But I will make sure I take a closer look at those strip positions so I know where you can get away with it and where you can't !

[37chevy]

woof said:

I wouldn't want the job if they paid me - tough job and you'll always be pissing someone off !

Re the pressure plates at Graham Hill - we all know it's my pet hate
But I was watching the PCGB race on Saturday. I watching one car run consistently over the kerb. But he wasn't hitting the pressure strips so got away without a single warning.

Doesn't really work. But I will make sure I take a closer look at those strip positions so I know where you can get away with it and where you can't !

Haha, now that's hypocritical!!!!....so you ARE looking to gain an advantage....il print that statement out and send it to every observer in the land lol!!!!

[woof]

37chevy said:

woof said:

I wouldn't want the job if they paid me - tough job and you'll always be pissing someone off !

Re the pressure plates at Graham Hill - we all know it's my pet hate
But I was watching the PCGB race on Saturday. I watching one car run consistently over the kerb. But he wasn't hitting the pressure strips so got away without a single warning.

Doesn't really work. But I will make sure I take a closer look at those strip positions so I know where you can get away with it and where you can't !

Haha, now that's hypocritical!!!!....so you ARE looking to gain an advantage....il print that statement out and send it to every observer in the land lol!!!!

Na - it's just demonstrating how the pressure strip system and no wheels off is a ridiculous rule and it's being applied totally differently from circuit to circuit. Anyway - not the thread for me to start this up on

[refoman2]

37chevy said:

Likewise the problem with most drivers is they have never been a marshal or observer so it's easy to sprout sh!te on the internet about incidents without knowing anything about then, how they are looked at/reported etc etc

I've marshalled, raced and spectate for over 20 years....you will find quite a few marshals who hold competition licences....we are at race tracks week in, week out looking at different cars going around corners lap after lap....trust me we know what an incident looks like

without knowing anything about them? I was involved in the incident you muppet! the main problem is though,and Ive seen this at many circuits in cars and karts its that I think a lot of the so called officials day jobs are so menial that they feel the need to be little hitlers when they get to a race track when they are on their power trip!

id really like to see the so called observers reports for the Shedden incident at Donington from the other week along with several of the other incidents from Thruxton!

[37chevy]

refoman2 said:

without knowing anything about them? I was involved in the incident you muppet! the main problem is though,and Ive seen this at many circuits in cars and karts its that I think a lot of the so called officials day jobs are so menial that they feel the need to be little hitlers when they get to a race track when they are on their power trip!

id really like to see the so called observers reports for the Shedden incident at Donington from the other week along with several of the other incidents from Thruxton!

Well having spent about 12 years being on the bank with some of those so called little hitlers Il tell you when I meet one! In all those years I've not seen one incident where an observer has reported anything but the truth....we have to report facts on what we see, the rest is up to the clerk to decide....oh and a massive assumption on your part about jobs....we have a wide range of careers from shelf stackers to managers...most of us don't need a power trip, we just want to enjoy the sport and give something back to it....maybe you should try it sometime. You may have a different opinion of us

[coppice]

refoman2 said:

I think a lot of the so called officials day jobs are so menial that they feel the need to be little hitlers when they get to a race track when they are on their power trip!

I think the term is "patronising arse" ; no axe to grind , not having marshalled for years, but the people I met ranged from plumbers to well off business men and several very handy racing drivers . I dare say some drivers may have what you term menial jobs too- do you expect them to give way to you ? Are you very rich and important ? We should be told ...

[woof]

I've suggested this before that the clubs/drivers should have a joint track day during the year.
The clubs should pay for it and allow the guys and girls in orange to come down, bring their cars, go out in some racers cars (as passengers).

It is a bit us and them - I'd totally support something like that. A bit of dialogue and the chance to actually speak and thank people for their support wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Gosh - wouldn't be great if we had some national body - that promoted driver / marshal ideas for the benefit of the sport ?!
Perhaps it could be called something like the Motor sport association ?

[Drumroll]

MSV do a trackday for marshals.

Some of us although Petrolheads are more than happy to stick to "our" side of the track.

[37chevy]

woof said:

I've suggested this before that the clubs/drivers should have a joint track day during the year.
The clubs should pay for it and allow the guys and girls in orange to come down, bring their cars, go out in some racers cars (as passengers).

It is a bit us and them - I'd totally support something like that. A bit of dialogue and the chance to actually speak and thank people for their support wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Gosh - wouldn't be great if we had some national body - that promoted driver / marshal ideas for the benefit of the sport ?!
Perhaps it could be called something like the Motor sport association ?

Yes it's a good idea, really thy should have high speed laps as a training thing for marshals, theres enough school cars at race tracks to do it....put them in as a passenger and hold out flags at random posts to show them what a driver sees. Likewise though I think ALL drivers should do the same training sessions to see the other side of things and spend a day on the bank each year so thy can see what happens in a real world situation.

Since I've been racing I've had a better understanding of drivers, which has in turn has developed my marshalling, likewise because I have a better understanding of marshalling it has helped my driving and recognising incidents/flags