Starting club racing - car and series advice please
Discussion
North West Sports & Saloons.
Based at Oulton Park and is a brilliant championship.
We race at Oulton, Donington, Anglesey and Cadwell.
www.barcnw.co.uk
Based at Oulton Park and is a brilliant championship.
We race at Oulton, Donington, Anglesey and Cadwell.
www.barcnw.co.uk
tms996 said:
Does anyone have any thoughts on the size of the field for these series? Reading the BRSCC and 750 sites, they talk about 60 cars in a race!
Given most circuits are limited by operating license to around 34 cars or less, massive grids are very rare - usually only for special cases like endurance racing.indigorallye said:
North West Sports & Saloons.
Based at Oulton Park and is a brilliant championship.
We race at Oulton, Donington, Anglesey and Cadwell.
www.barcnw.co.uk
I sponsored this championship for three years in the late eighties, and it is as successful now, as it was then!! The problem being now, that to have any chance of being anywhere other than the back of the field, you would need a bigger initial budget than what the OP is prepared to spend!! The XR's had seven cars on the grid this weekend at Cadwell, .. not a good sign I'm afraid! I have raced in, and coached several drivers in Mighty Minis, and is still a well run strong championship, but Minis do have reliability problems! I have raced Porsche 924's which are OK, but the future looks suspect, and I now own a Honda Civic Cup car (EG6), and have raced in that series and the CSCC Tin Tops with the same car! Based at Oulton Park and is a brilliant championship.
We race at Oulton, Donington, Anglesey and Cadwell.
www.barcnw.co.uk
I also own and race an MG ZS 180 V6 in the northern based MGCC Cockshoot Cup, which is generally good grids, good racing, cheap by comparison to some series, and the cars, ZR's, ZS's, TF's etc are affordable! When buying a car, always think of something that has numerous series that it is eligible for, ..... there is no point in buying something that has nowhere to race!
OP, I live in Cheadle Hulme, and I will PM you with my mobile number, and feel free to call me, and I will advise you with regards to everything you require, because I also arrange medicals, and carry out ARDS courses at Anglesey!!
ginettajoe said:
I sponsored this championship for three years in the late eighties, and it is as successful now, as it was then!! The problem being now, that to have any chance of being anywhere other than the back of the field, you would need a bigger initial budget than what the OP is prepared to spend!! The XR's had seven cars on the grid this weekend at Cadwell, .. not a good sign I'm afraid! I have raced in, and coached several drivers in Mighty Minis, and is still a well run strong championship, but Minis do have reliability problems! I have raced Porsche 924's which are OK, but the future looks suspect, and I now own a Honda Civic Cup car (EG6), and have raced in that series and the CSCC Tin Tops with the same car!
I also own and race an MG ZS 180 V6 in the northern based MGCC Cockshoot Cup, which is generally good grids, good racing, cheap by comparison to some series, and the cars, ZR's, ZS's, TF's etc are affordable! When buying a car, always think of something that has numerous series that it is eligible for, ..... there is no point in buying something that has nowhere to race!
OP, I live in Cheadle Hulme, and I will PM you with my mobile number, and feel free to call me, and I will advise you with regards to everything you require, because I also arrange medicals, and carry out ARDS courses at Anglesey!!
Joe, thanks very much, I'll certainly get in touch.I also own and race an MG ZS 180 V6 in the northern based MGCC Cockshoot Cup, which is generally good grids, good racing, cheap by comparison to some series, and the cars, ZR's, ZS's, TF's etc are affordable! When buying a car, always think of something that has numerous series that it is eligible for, ..... there is no point in buying something that has nowhere to race!
OP, I live in Cheadle Hulme, and I will PM you with my mobile number, and feel free to call me, and I will advise you with regards to everything you require, because I also arrange medicals, and carry out ARDS courses at Anglesey!!
I've had a look at the MG series as well, having previously restored one and I remember how good the support is. The TF's and ZR's certainly seem affordable- there are a couple on Ebay now within budget for example. Interesting to hear about the XR grid. Looking at what is available through the CSCC and MGCC could give me the widest choice. One of my colleagues races a classic MG and insists they are the best for residual value if you have to sell them on as well.
tms996 said:
I've driven a lot of high performance FWD stuff over the years, so I was thinking of sticking with what I know and buying something like an old XR2 or similar, although it's not set in stone. I've seen them really cheap on PH classifieds and it seems to be a cheap way into racing. My budget is as low as possible, I'd like to buy a car for no more than 2-3K really. (A bit more if the wife's not looking!)
I hate to say it, but if you have to get the wife to look the other way for £2-3k outlay on some barely-depreciating tin, how will you justify the season's running costs to her? No matter what circuit racing you do, £2k isn't going to get you more than a few races. Even if you drive the car to the event, you'll need nearly £2k for your safety gear (helmet, suit, boots and gloves), ARDS and first entry fee. Add in a trailer and a towbar for your current car and you'll double that cost. You might stuff it at the first corner ... or in practice and do £2k of damage.I will add my two penny worth.
Racing is not cheap but it can be done more cheaply than people realise. However for this you have to accept that you will probably be racing in multi class races and you won't be at the front. You may be part of a class of 4 or 5 within a bigger grid, for example, but you will still have fun.
Pick the car carefully. I used to race a Fiat Uno that was exceptionally well built and only cost me £2k to buy. It handled brilliantly but when I blew the engine it cost a fortune to get another built as there are just not many fiat race engine specialists or parts about. Similarly I raced an Ala 33 which cost me £600 and was a great car (but very scruffy) but parts were difficult. Might be better therefore to buy a car like a fiesta, metro, mg rover, Peugeot 205, vw golf etc where there are quite a few cars about and quite a bit of knowledge and parts about.
Other cars to consider are mx5 or Toyota mr2. However, I would avoid one make series personally. In my opinion, they tend to be TOO competitive and people can end up spending more money on panels and making the engine go 1-2 bhp better! The cars I have mentioned are suitable for several multi class races though.
I am bound to mention 40 minute shared races as a way of cutting costs. I am biased as a confirmed CSCC man but there are plenty of options here that could fall in to your budget. Share a car with a mate and they will share costs - if it's your car then you should be able to charge a bit of a "hire fee" on top. I do and this helps subsidise travel costs, maintenance and purchase of a trailer etc. and of course 40 min races tend to mean that there is more track time for the cost of travel etc.
One of the other advantages of 40 min races is that they tend to be less frenetic than 15 or 20 min sprint races so accident damage tends to be significantly less.
If you want any more info on CSCC tin tops, future classics or modern classics race series then please pm me and I will be happy to help. Come along to one of our meetings for a look see. We have races coming up at Castle Combe, Anglesey, Donington, Oulton, and Snetterton. Look at our club web site for more info and, again, pm me and I can meet up if possible and might even be able to arrange a free ticket.
Any questions, feel free to ask.
Racing is not cheap but it can be done more cheaply than people realise. However for this you have to accept that you will probably be racing in multi class races and you won't be at the front. You may be part of a class of 4 or 5 within a bigger grid, for example, but you will still have fun.
Pick the car carefully. I used to race a Fiat Uno that was exceptionally well built and only cost me £2k to buy. It handled brilliantly but when I blew the engine it cost a fortune to get another built as there are just not many fiat race engine specialists or parts about. Similarly I raced an Ala 33 which cost me £600 and was a great car (but very scruffy) but parts were difficult. Might be better therefore to buy a car like a fiesta, metro, mg rover, Peugeot 205, vw golf etc where there are quite a few cars about and quite a bit of knowledge and parts about.
Other cars to consider are mx5 or Toyota mr2. However, I would avoid one make series personally. In my opinion, they tend to be TOO competitive and people can end up spending more money on panels and making the engine go 1-2 bhp better! The cars I have mentioned are suitable for several multi class races though.
I am bound to mention 40 minute shared races as a way of cutting costs. I am biased as a confirmed CSCC man but there are plenty of options here that could fall in to your budget. Share a car with a mate and they will share costs - if it's your car then you should be able to charge a bit of a "hire fee" on top. I do and this helps subsidise travel costs, maintenance and purchase of a trailer etc. and of course 40 min races tend to mean that there is more track time for the cost of travel etc.
One of the other advantages of 40 min races is that they tend to be less frenetic than 15 or 20 min sprint races so accident damage tends to be significantly less.
If you want any more info on CSCC tin tops, future classics or modern classics race series then please pm me and I will be happy to help. Come along to one of our meetings for a look see. We have races coming up at Castle Combe, Anglesey, Donington, Oulton, and Snetterton. Look at our club web site for more info and, again, pm me and I can meet up if possible and might even be able to arrange a free ticket.
Any questions, feel free to ask.
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 17th June 14:16
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 17th June 14:20
The 750MC are racing at Rockingham in early July.
Most Championships will be represented so you can have a
good look at the different formula and chat to the club
and drivers.
I would look at Classic stock hatch as a possible, in terms
of both car and running costs.
The MGCC's blue ribbon event is this weekend at Silverstone.
Most Championships will be represented so you can have a
good look at the different formula and chat to the club
and drivers.
I would look at Classic stock hatch as a possible, in terms
of both car and running costs.
The MGCC's blue ribbon event is this weekend at Silverstone.
I've been looking into getting into racing as well, recently contacted Blitz motorsport who arrange the arrive and drives for the MR2's. Really helpful guys there and for those interested, here's some of the info they gave me...
"To give you some idea on cost; for a normally aspirated MR2 MK2 in 'Toyota Championship' specification.
You would need to pay a deposit with the booking of £750, this is refundable after the event subject to no outstanding charges. Testing typically the Friday prior to race weekend, is £80 per 5min of track time, subject to a minimum charge of £640 (track time of 40 min). This covers car preparation, set up for that circuit and your driving style, car transportation; consumables inc tyres track support etc with the exception of the cost of race car fuel. Payment is due 5 weeks prior to test with any additional charges for time and fuel being payable within 7 days following the test day.
Race meetings, typically being single day, one qualifying session 15 min and two 15min races, The fee covers car preparation, set up for that circuit, car transportation, all consumables inc tyres and fuel, track support etc. the total is £950.00. This is payable 5 weeks prior to the race meeting. You will be required to provide your own personal race equipment, overalls helmet etc. Be responsible for your race licence and any club membership charges, along with race entry fees and circuit hire fees associated with testing. Typical membership is £50, championship registration if required circa £100, race entry £320.00, test circuit fees from £180 to £350. In addition to above you would also need to cover your race insurance to a car value of £9,500 (for a MR2 championship spec car). The cost of this is dependent on your race driving history and any excess level and would be typically between £400 and £800 to cover a day’s test and the race meeting.
The alternative to this is to pay a bond, which like the £750 deposit is fully refundable on return of the car with no damage.
You are also responsible for any damage caused whilst you are using the car, to give you an example, light front end damage requiring a new front wing (£130.00) broken windscreen (£285.00). Replacement door mirror (£65.00) Damaged wheel (Mk3 wheel £50.00 Mk5 wheel £95.00) Flat spot a completely new set of tyres (approx. £600.00 + fitting etc.) Flat spot a part worn set of tyres, a percentage charge against tread depth. Completely blow an engine (£2,750) damage gearbox (typically £350). Completely total the car with no salvageable parts (£9,500.00). These prices include labour charges and new/second hand re-furbished parts as appropriate. Labour charges for repair work £45 per hour parts required charged at cost.
Some events are slightly lower cost than the above, but this should give you a fair idea of what is involved. As you can appreciate the transportation to circuits is a significant cost, as such should you choose to do your meetings in the 750 m/c MR2 Championship from the following circuits, Castle Combe, Brands Hatch, Rockingham, Donington or Silverstone and commit to three or four race weekends, I could look at doing a reduced packaged price. One further big benefit is that we do not anticipate having to charge the additional 20% VAT to our charges in 2014. A further consideration may be to do races in another race series other than the MR2 championship, the reason for this is that with the championship, all the top cars are very close to each other in performance and as such very close racing with the inevitable racing incidents and associated damage, which can add to the costs of the race weekend through no fault of your own, the championship also tends to have a higher insurance cost for cover of the race weekend.
Whilst the lowest cost racing would have been the WRDA race series at Pembrey circuit, unfortunately we are fully committed for this series and do not have any cars available, but we do currently have availability in the Nippon Challenge GT200 class, which may be worth considering, it is similar pricing to the MR2 Championship, with a good selection of circuits, but not quite so close wheel to wheel racing and as such a lot less likely to pick up damage.
If you need anything further please do not hesitate to contact me."
So it's not cheap, I'm calculating that to get to the stage where you're actually on a grid in an arrive and drive car is about 2k (MSA licence, gear, club membership, race entry and car hire), which would be with no test time. If you're wanting that you're looking at £2.5k+. Add to that the deposit, excess and potential damage costs it's seriously making me consider buying a car myself. Appreciate once you've got the licence, equipment and club membership a good part of the cost is reduced. My issue is that I have nowhere to store another car or a way to transport it, so if I want to do it, no other option other than an arrive and drive.
"To give you some idea on cost; for a normally aspirated MR2 MK2 in 'Toyota Championship' specification.
You would need to pay a deposit with the booking of £750, this is refundable after the event subject to no outstanding charges. Testing typically the Friday prior to race weekend, is £80 per 5min of track time, subject to a minimum charge of £640 (track time of 40 min). This covers car preparation, set up for that circuit and your driving style, car transportation; consumables inc tyres track support etc with the exception of the cost of race car fuel. Payment is due 5 weeks prior to test with any additional charges for time and fuel being payable within 7 days following the test day.
Race meetings, typically being single day, one qualifying session 15 min and two 15min races, The fee covers car preparation, set up for that circuit, car transportation, all consumables inc tyres and fuel, track support etc. the total is £950.00. This is payable 5 weeks prior to the race meeting. You will be required to provide your own personal race equipment, overalls helmet etc. Be responsible for your race licence and any club membership charges, along with race entry fees and circuit hire fees associated with testing. Typical membership is £50, championship registration if required circa £100, race entry £320.00, test circuit fees from £180 to £350. In addition to above you would also need to cover your race insurance to a car value of £9,500 (for a MR2 championship spec car). The cost of this is dependent on your race driving history and any excess level and would be typically between £400 and £800 to cover a day’s test and the race meeting.
The alternative to this is to pay a bond, which like the £750 deposit is fully refundable on return of the car with no damage.
You are also responsible for any damage caused whilst you are using the car, to give you an example, light front end damage requiring a new front wing (£130.00) broken windscreen (£285.00). Replacement door mirror (£65.00) Damaged wheel (Mk3 wheel £50.00 Mk5 wheel £95.00) Flat spot a completely new set of tyres (approx. £600.00 + fitting etc.) Flat spot a part worn set of tyres, a percentage charge against tread depth. Completely blow an engine (£2,750) damage gearbox (typically £350). Completely total the car with no salvageable parts (£9,500.00). These prices include labour charges and new/second hand re-furbished parts as appropriate. Labour charges for repair work £45 per hour parts required charged at cost.
Some events are slightly lower cost than the above, but this should give you a fair idea of what is involved. As you can appreciate the transportation to circuits is a significant cost, as such should you choose to do your meetings in the 750 m/c MR2 Championship from the following circuits, Castle Combe, Brands Hatch, Rockingham, Donington or Silverstone and commit to three or four race weekends, I could look at doing a reduced packaged price. One further big benefit is that we do not anticipate having to charge the additional 20% VAT to our charges in 2014. A further consideration may be to do races in another race series other than the MR2 championship, the reason for this is that with the championship, all the top cars are very close to each other in performance and as such very close racing with the inevitable racing incidents and associated damage, which can add to the costs of the race weekend through no fault of your own, the championship also tends to have a higher insurance cost for cover of the race weekend.
Whilst the lowest cost racing would have been the WRDA race series at Pembrey circuit, unfortunately we are fully committed for this series and do not have any cars available, but we do currently have availability in the Nippon Challenge GT200 class, which may be worth considering, it is similar pricing to the MR2 Championship, with a good selection of circuits, but not quite so close wheel to wheel racing and as such a lot less likely to pick up damage.
If you need anything further please do not hesitate to contact me."
So it's not cheap, I'm calculating that to get to the stage where you're actually on a grid in an arrive and drive car is about 2k (MSA licence, gear, club membership, race entry and car hire), which would be with no test time. If you're wanting that you're looking at £2.5k+. Add to that the deposit, excess and potential damage costs it's seriously making me consider buying a car myself. Appreciate once you've got the licence, equipment and club membership a good part of the cost is reduced. My issue is that I have nowhere to store another car or a way to transport it, so if I want to do it, no other option other than an arrive and drive.
OP I'm sorry to say I think you are doing this wrong. If you skimp on the cost of the race car you will have a long and expensive road ahead of you to make it the car you should've bought in the first place (i.e. a competetive one)
Also if you focus too much on the initial cost of the car you can compromise the type of racing you are getting without really enjoying any cost saving in the long run (because the cost of the car is such a small part of the story, track time, memberships and entry fees are broadly similar in club motorsport, and the value of a half decent car is unlikely to change drastically between the day you buy it and sell it).
On that basis I will do what I always do and recommend Caterhams. Used cars start at about eight grand but for that you have a RWD spaceframe chassis which handles quite a lot like a race car straight out of the box. You get a closely controlled specification with an anti-chequebook emphasis. You get decent sized grids with only one or occasionally two classes sharing.
The car looks expensive but It'll never lose any money, and the cost of competing is comparable to all of the other options at the lower end of the UK circuit racing ladder.
I acknowledge that you said you wanted to stick to FWD to which I respond with a resounding 'why???'!
Also if you focus too much on the initial cost of the car you can compromise the type of racing you are getting without really enjoying any cost saving in the long run (because the cost of the car is such a small part of the story, track time, memberships and entry fees are broadly similar in club motorsport, and the value of a half decent car is unlikely to change drastically between the day you buy it and sell it).
On that basis I will do what I always do and recommend Caterhams. Used cars start at about eight grand but for that you have a RWD spaceframe chassis which handles quite a lot like a race car straight out of the box. You get a closely controlled specification with an anti-chequebook emphasis. You get decent sized grids with only one or occasionally two classes sharing.
The car looks expensive but It'll never lose any money, and the cost of competing is comparable to all of the other options at the lower end of the UK circuit racing ladder.
I acknowledge that you said you wanted to stick to FWD to which I respond with a resounding 'why???'!
I just did a quick calculation for expected costs to run a season in Caterham Graduates, including basic technical support by McMillan Motorports, and transports and storage by book-a-track.
I calculated for a season of seven races with test days before each of them as well as the pre season track day.
936 storage
2764 transport
4874 race weekend entry plus all test days
200 barc and graduates membership
800 race car fuel
1080 3x tyres
500 brakes, fluids etc
495 technical support
11649 total
add just over 2000 to include the Spa Francorchamps race (expensive transport)
Additional costs: travel and accomodation, repairs
I figured insurance would be a waste considering the cost of the car
One time costs:
Personal race gear: 1000-2000
Racing License: 300
Car: 10 000
Tools: ?
Additional rims for spare tyres: ?
I calculated for a season of seven races with test days before each of them as well as the pre season track day.
936 storage
2764 transport
4874 race weekend entry plus all test days
200 barc and graduates membership
800 race car fuel
1080 3x tyres
500 brakes, fluids etc
495 technical support
11649 total
add just over 2000 to include the Spa Francorchamps race (expensive transport)
Additional costs: travel and accomodation, repairs
I figured insurance would be a waste considering the cost of the car
One time costs:
Personal race gear: 1000-2000
Racing License: 300
Car: 10 000
Tools: ?
Additional rims for spare tyres: ?
andyc11 said:
I've been looking into getting into racing as well, recently contacted Blitz motorsport who arrange the arrive and drives for the MR2's. Really helpful guys there and for those interested, here's some of the info they gave me...
So it's not cheap,
Ridiculous prices quoted there, Rogue motorsport offer far better value but either of the 2 is a very expensive way to go club racing, buying a well prepared car is the way to do it and learn as you go.So it's not cheap,
BritishRacinGrin said:
I acknowledge that you said you wanted to stick to FWD to which I respond with a resounding 'why???'!
More fun 
? If you are on tight budget, have a look at Mini se7en S-class as part of the mini7 racing club - Same ethos as quoted on Caterhams - close spec that is policed.Cars available from 5K. Budget 2K for racing apparel inc Hans. £200 yearly championship subscription and club membership. Reasonable assumption is 500+ quid a race meeting inc entry (300) double headers /fuel/race fuel/human fuel. Tyres are £110 a corner and last a season.
It is a friendly club where people aren't peeled off each other in Parc Ferme at each meeting after on track contretemps and shenanigans. Club BBQ's at rounds and parts prices arent mental because of the availability of Mini performance bits.
andyc11 said:
Expensive stuff!
Hi Andy,You don't need to trailer and store your own car. My car (MR2 Mk1) is looked after my www.prizemotorsport.co.uk and while I can't remember the exact figures storage is about £40pm and towing to an event £150. They do all the work on the car and deliver it to the track and support as required.
Racing is very close and there will be contact, but often panels can be pulled back into shape and tape added. You can then refresh the car in the off season.
I believe a new build car is about £4.5K but secondhand cars are available for considerably less. One sold for £1.5K this week.
Running things this way is far, far cheaper than the arrive and drive prices quoted. Prize also do arrive and drive but I've no idea what this costs. I suspect less than you've been quoted though.
Also check out www.trackattackraceclub.com
Frank Herfjord said:
I just did a quick calculation for expected costs to run a season in Caterham Graduates, including basic technical support by McMillan Motorports, and transports and storage by book-a-track.
I calculated for a season of seven races with test days before each of them as well as the pre season track day.
936 storage
2764 transport
4874 race weekend entry plus all test days
200 barc and graduates membership
800 race car fuel
1080 3x tyres
500 brakes, fluids etc
495 technical support
11649 total
add just over 2000 to include the Spa Francorchamps race (expensive transport)
Additional costs: travel and accomodation, repairs
I figured insurance would be a waste considering the cost of the car
One time costs:
Personal race gear: 1000-2000
Racing License: 300
Car: 10 000
Tools: ?
Additional rims for spare tyres: ?
Firstly all of the meetings for the last couple of years have been double headers so you wouldn't get seven races you'd get fourteen. Secondly, that'd be a pretty lavish budget. Storage and transport would be a very extravagant expenditure making up pretty much a third of your budget. You'll find that the majority of club members use a tow car and trailer, or an old panel van or truck. Less than a grands worth of old BMW barge and a used Brian James Trailer (which won't depreciate) did me fine. I even slept in the back of the BMW for the Spa weekend in 2012, camped at circuits a few times and other times 'treated' myself to a travelodge. Do you include the cost of eating at restaurants or driving to circuits in a racing budget? I tend to eat food and use my car when I stay at home, too... okay, you will put a fair bit of fuel through the car getting to some of the events but still... I calculated for a season of seven races with test days before each of them as well as the pre season track day.
936 storage
2764 transport
4874 race weekend entry plus all test days
200 barc and graduates membership
800 race car fuel
1080 3x tyres
500 brakes, fluids etc
495 technical support
11649 total
add just over 2000 to include the Spa Francorchamps race (expensive transport)
Additional costs: travel and accomodation, repairs
I figured insurance would be a waste considering the cost of the car
One time costs:
Personal race gear: 1000-2000
Racing License: 300
Car: 10 000
Tools: ?
Additional rims for spare tyres: ?
I didn't bother with technical support at all for three of the four seasons and simply got stuck in and did it myself. I raced a classic which will set you back more like 8,000 quid and two sets of tyres per season was enough presuming I started the season with last years wets to use as testing tyres.
Most used cars will probably come with three sets of wheels and a bunch of part worn tyres.
Is it reasonable to include the cost of tools in a racing budget? They aren't going to cease to have a value or be useful to you at the end of October, tools are a one-time investment which could serve you for a lifetime. Racewear, too, will do you for several years
I always reckoned upon about 7k per season to run a classic. The main running cost difference with the faster cars is the 1b tyres which will cost you a few hundred quid per set rather than the couple of hundred quid classics tyres will cost you.
P.S. Front brakes are all the same and they're all Spitfire based so my pads were costing me about 50 quid an axle set and discs about 15 each. I never did manage to wear out a set of front pads in one season either, and the discs were always good for two sets of pads.
Edited by BritishRacinGrin on Friday 4th July 17:58
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