Cheating - would you do it if you didn't get caught?
Discussion
Al Weyman said:
Re. the wire torsion bars, if I was running the series he WOULD NOT HAVE WON IT, simple as that I would have found a way to ban that modification.
But is that not just making the rules up as you go along Al..interpreting rules is not cheating.
The written word is often misleading and can be understood in different ways..
Every month we get clarifications in the blue book....
racers are always looking for the competitive edge..rule interpretation is just one method of maximising the advantage.
N.
woof said:
plenty of ECU cheats going on in my experience.
That's why it's better to have an open ECU as it's impossible to police at club level
I'm a bigger fan of standard series issued ECUs.That's why it's better to have an open ECU as it's impossible to police at club level
You can run your own for testing and so on but you are handed your ECU for the meeting by the series coordinator at scrutineering and it is taken from your car in Parc Ferme. Results are provisional for 7 days after each event to allow for interrogation of any ECUs if felt necessary.
Rude-boy said:
I'm a bigger fan of standard series issued ECUs.
You can run your own for testing and so on but you are handed your ECU for the meeting by the series coordinator at scrutineering and it is taken from your car in Parc Ferme. Results are provisional for 7 days after each event to allow for interrogation of any ECUs if felt necessary.
Hard to do on recent models. From 2004 (ish) onwards the ecu is coded to the key/immobiliser and the instruments. Alll three have to be changed as a set at the same time. So for example the Boxster series couldn't swap ecu's between cars without dismantling the dash.You can run your own for testing and so on but you are handed your ECU for the meeting by the series coordinator at scrutineering and it is taken from your car in Parc Ferme. Results are provisional for 7 days after each event to allow for interrogation of any ECUs if felt necessary.
Rude-boy said:
woof said:
plenty of ECU cheats going on in my experience.
That's why it's better to have an open ECU as it's impossible to police at club level
I'm a bigger fan of standard series issued ECUs.That's why it's better to have an open ECU as it's impossible to police at club level
You can run your own for testing and so on but you are handed your ECU for the meeting by the series coordinator at scrutineering and it is taken from your car in Parc Ferme. Results are provisional for 7 days after each event to allow for interrogation of any ECUs if felt necessary.
The PDA BRSCC porsche series allow 986's and 987's race but they're different motec ECUs - so that wouldn't be possible there.
I bought a car that we found a piggy back ECU on - it had a blank put in that I wasn't get any advantage from. But it was totally undetectable and very well hidden. They could have pulled out the ECU, tested it and passed. That was put in only with one intention. But we'll never know when or where that had been put in previously.
At the end of the day at club level it's pretty easy to see who has an unfair advantage. The problem is that most clubs don't want to address it, because they don't want to offend someone that might take their entry fee elsewhere.
Soul Reaver said:
It's like cheating at golf, not counting that little fluff shot in the rough no one saw. You only cheat yourself to a hollow victory to my mind. What's the point.
Winning,it would seem.In 2000 I built a new car from scratch.First race out,pole position,fastest lap,new lap record finished 2nd.Second race Pole position fastest lap finished 2nd to same bloke,he then was excluded for non compliance(see what I did there)I never received the trophies for first only the points and it took me 11 years to win a race and stand on the top step of the podium.That's why I hate non compliers. In the race series I am involved with we have to run control fuel - on a fairly regular basis fuel is sampled by Sunoco and run through their on-site checking looking for whatever chemical signature is present in the correct proportions.
We run control tyres and are only allowed 1 set per weekend. Before the first track session we have to submit a sheet to the eligibility scruitneer with the bar code numbers for each tyre, and he will spot check cars during the weekend in assembly area or parc ferme.
Our car isn't subject to minimum ride height but he will measure height of rear wing against MSA regulations. Cars are also weighed to ensure complience with the published regulations.
Car has inlet restrictor, this is measured and also airbox is vacuum tested to make sure that all the air is coming through the inlet restrictor.
Some engines have seals placed by the engine builder as there was scope for engine improvements, and the scruitineer will check that those seals are present.
We had someone ask to see our datalogging as another competitor wondered why our car was faster than his supposedly identical car, and it was simply that we were exiting a corner faster which meant we reached a higher top speed and arrived at the next corner earlier.
On another series I'm involved with which has a minimum ride height which is also checked regularly. This series had options for throttle body diameter which was checked during the season and several engines were sealed for examination. Our engine was found to be legal - other engines were found not to comply.
It pays to read the regulations carefully and decide where there is room to be clever and where the regulations are tightly controlled.
We run control tyres and are only allowed 1 set per weekend. Before the first track session we have to submit a sheet to the eligibility scruitneer with the bar code numbers for each tyre, and he will spot check cars during the weekend in assembly area or parc ferme.
Our car isn't subject to minimum ride height but he will measure height of rear wing against MSA regulations. Cars are also weighed to ensure complience with the published regulations.
Car has inlet restrictor, this is measured and also airbox is vacuum tested to make sure that all the air is coming through the inlet restrictor.
Some engines have seals placed by the engine builder as there was scope for engine improvements, and the scruitineer will check that those seals are present.
We had someone ask to see our datalogging as another competitor wondered why our car was faster than his supposedly identical car, and it was simply that we were exiting a corner faster which meant we reached a higher top speed and arrived at the next corner earlier.
On another series I'm involved with which has a minimum ride height which is also checked regularly. This series had options for throttle body diameter which was checked during the season and several engines were sealed for examination. Our engine was found to be legal - other engines were found not to comply.
It pays to read the regulations carefully and decide where there is room to be clever and where the regulations are tightly controlled.
What series is that ? Sounds very well run
There's a current hum dinger with the BRSCC Porsches.
The organiser is trying to push through a compulsory brake cooling change that the team he's involved with has developed and you have to use that system! The change has to be approved by everyone and some haven't so 2 drivers are now running illegal cars, assuming they race this weekend.
No doubt they'll find a resolution but ...
There's a current hum dinger with the BRSCC Porsches.
The organiser is trying to push through a compulsory brake cooling change that the team he's involved with has developed and you have to use that system! The change has to be approved by everyone and some haven't so 2 drivers are now running illegal cars, assuming they race this weekend.
No doubt they'll find a resolution but ...
Some scrutineers are a bit overkeen though and take things to a daft level. A guy in the N/w FF1600 was excluded as he failed the ride height check. A cheat? Not in my, or I suspect any rational persons book.
He was excluded as the end of fire extinguisher pin had worked its way through a hole in the floor pan. Mean I thought.
I was once asked for a fuel sample by the series scrutineer. He gave me a small bottle an asked me to fill it up. I had no idea how to gesome out of the fuel injection system, so just slurped a bit from the jerry can that had previously been used to fuel the car. Cheat? Don't think so.
That same series was won by a chap of some repute that had decated the exhaust, changed diff ratios and had a different ecu. Allegedly, of course. It was nice to beat him occasionally.
He was excluded as the end of fire extinguisher pin had worked its way through a hole in the floor pan. Mean I thought.
I was once asked for a fuel sample by the series scrutineer. He gave me a small bottle an asked me to fill it up. I had no idea how to gesome out of the fuel injection system, so just slurped a bit from the jerry can that had previously been used to fuel the car. Cheat? Don't think so.
That same series was won by a chap of some repute that had decated the exhaust, changed diff ratios and had a different ecu. Allegedly, of course. It was nice to beat him occasionally.tapkaJohnD said:
MUCH more fun is bending the rules, finding loopholes that allow you to do something that no one else has thought of. Colin Chapman was famous for this, but my favourite example was a friend who converted his Hot Hatch's rear suspension from torsion bar - not easy to adjust - to coil-overs. The rules said that 'original suspension system to be retained' so he did retain two wires that were twisted by suspension movement.
Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
Pretty sure that is default in the Blue Book?Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John
Cheating is rife, especially if it genuinely means something. Maybe there should just be a prize for best cheater? Think TWR would run away with that!
norwichphoto said:
We had someone ask to see our datalogging as another competitor wondered why our car was faster than his supposedly identical car, and it was simply that we were exiting a corner faster which meant we reached a higher top speed and arrived at the next corner earlier.
Cheeky - now they know where they can make up time!
woof said:
What series is that ? Sounds very well run
There's a current hum dinger with the BRSCC Porsches.
The organiser is trying to push through a compulsory brake cooling change that the team he's involved with has developed and you have to use that system! The change has to be approved by everyone and some haven't so 2 drivers are now running illegal cars, assuming they race this weekend.
No doubt they'll find a resolution but ...
No surprise or change then as that's the same series that changed the regs on flywheels , pushed it through made us change to be competitive and then made and sold us the flywheels...crazy nonsense. Problem there is the co ordinater is also a driver so it always looks like its to his gain..often it's not. But it does raise the question should a co ordinator be a driver too...There's a current hum dinger with the BRSCC Porsches.
The organiser is trying to push through a compulsory brake cooling change that the team he's involved with has developed and you have to use that system! The change has to be approved by everyone and some haven't so 2 drivers are now running illegal cars, assuming they race this weekend.
No doubt they'll find a resolution but ...
Edited by Boxster66 on Tuesday 8th July 21:14
Boxster66 said:
No surprise or change then as that's the same series that changed the regs on flywheels , pushed it through made us change to be competitive and then made and sold us the flywheels...crazy nonsense. Problem there is the co ordinater is also a driver so it always looks like its to his gain..often it's not. But it does raise the question should a co ordinator be a driver too...
Not sure they can....Edited by Boxster66 on Tuesday 8th July 21:14
Unless the declared co-ordinator isn't really the co-ordinator, and I'm not sure the MSA would look kindly at that.
MSA Blue Book, Section W, clause 2.2
2.2. A Championship Co-ordinator, Championship Stewards (minimum three) and an Eligibility Scrutineer must be nominated on the Application Form by the Organisers and there may be no duplication of duties. None may be Competitors in the Championship, prepare entries for the Championship or be sponsors of Competitors in the Championship.
Edited by andrewcliffe on Tuesday 8th July 22:10
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