Where to start circuit racing?
Discussion
andrewcliffe said:
Race Cars Direct and Motorsport Ads are classified services which is worth a peruse. Otherwise individual series have their own for sale sections or traders.
As its getting towards the end of the season, there may be a number of cars on the market soon as people decide what they want to do in the future - upgrade / retire / take up ocean yacht racing / take up darts.
That's really helpful, thanks AndrewAs its getting towards the end of the season, there may be a number of cars on the market soon as people decide what they want to do in the future - upgrade / retire / take up ocean yacht racing / take up darts.
Stevemcmaster said:
Hi There,
I'm just coming to the end of my first year of racing. I have been with the Caterham Graduate Championship and can thoroughly recommend it.
Great circuits, relatively cheap cost of entry for the performance offered (My car was just over 8 grand for a Crossflow Caterham built in 1997), very welcoming championship that has a real family atmosphere and usually, one overseas round per year.
Tires last for a year in the Classics class, and the engines and gearboxes are pretty bulletproof.
If you are interested, give me a shout and I can give you some more lowdown and pointers.
Cheers
Steve
Hi Steve, any pointers and advice would be appreciated, email link should be in profile.I'm just coming to the end of my first year of racing. I have been with the Caterham Graduate Championship and can thoroughly recommend it.
Great circuits, relatively cheap cost of entry for the performance offered (My car was just over 8 grand for a Crossflow Caterham built in 1997), very welcoming championship that has a real family atmosphere and usually, one overseas round per year.
Tires last for a year in the Classics class, and the engines and gearboxes are pretty bulletproof.
If you are interested, give me a shout and I can give you some more lowdown and pointers.
Cheers
Steve
For me the deciding factor for going down the Caterham route was that the car specification is very tightly controlled. The regulations are the defining factor in the difference between being able to afford to 'compete', and being able to afford to 'win'- as these two aspirations are often seperated by a gulf of tens of thousands of pounds per season in more open class racing and even in one make series where the regulations aren't so tightly controlled.
In classic grads people have bought a car for 8,000 and won a championship on an annual budget of even less. Then, due to the residual value of Caterhams and the demand provided by a healthy club, you can sell the car at the end for the same as what you paid.
In classic grads people have bought a car for 8,000 and won a championship on an annual budget of even less. Then, due to the residual value of Caterhams and the demand provided by a healthy club, you can sell the car at the end for the same as what you paid.
BritishRacinGrin said:
For me the deciding factor for going down the Caterham route was that the car specification is very tightly controlled. The regulations are the defining factor in the difference between being able to afford to 'compete', and being able to afford to 'win'- as these two aspirations are often seperated by a gulf of tens of thousands of pounds per season in more open class racing and even in one make series where the regulations aren't so tightly controlled.
In classic grads people have bought a car for 8,000 and won a championship on an annual budget of even less. Then, due to the residual value of Caterhams and the demand provided by a healthy club, you can sell the car at the end for the same as what you paid.
That certainly makes sense!In classic grads people have bought a car for 8,000 and won a championship on an annual budget of even less. Then, due to the residual value of Caterhams and the demand provided by a healthy club, you can sell the car at the end for the same as what you paid.
If you are considering MX-5's I would/I did go with the MK3 over the MK1. THe MK1 racing is very expensive due to people having trick engines etc.
THe MK3's are having a bit of a resurgence with the BRSCC averaging around 18 cars per round, seeing as high as 26 with high to mid 20's expected. Cars are about 10k to buy and run standard engines, gearboxes, diffs and brakes. Everything else being specified in the regs. Parts are cheap to come buy with complete spare cars now available for around £2500.
Engines are a bit of a week point, but the 2009 on engines are stronger. All the cars are evenly matched with 1 second seperating the top 10 at most tracks.
We have seen some excellent policing of regs this year, with 1 competitor being excluded for running a short shift kit.
There are currently 5 cars for sale at the mo, 3 on ebay.
Rob
THe MK3's are having a bit of a resurgence with the BRSCC averaging around 18 cars per round, seeing as high as 26 with high to mid 20's expected. Cars are about 10k to buy and run standard engines, gearboxes, diffs and brakes. Everything else being specified in the regs. Parts are cheap to come buy with complete spare cars now available for around £2500.
Engines are a bit of a week point, but the 2009 on engines are stronger. All the cars are evenly matched with 1 second seperating the top 10 at most tracks.
We have seen some excellent policing of regs this year, with 1 competitor being excluded for running a short shift kit.
There are currently 5 cars for sale at the mo, 3 on ebay.
Rob
Bertrum said:
If you are considering MX-5's I would/I did go with the MK3 over the MK1. THe MK1 racing is very expensive due to people having trick engines etc.
THe MK3's are having a bit of a resurgence with the BRSCC averaging around 18 cars per round, seeing as high as 26 with high to mid 20's expected. Cars are about 10k to buy and run standard engines, gearboxes, diffs and brakes. Everything else being specified in the regs. Parts are cheap to come buy with complete spare cars now available for around £2500.
Engines are a bit of a week point, but the 2009 on engines are stronger. All the cars are evenly matched with 1 second seperating the top 10 at most tracks.
We have seen some excellent policing of regs this year, with 1 competitor being excluded for running a short shift kit.
There are currently 5 cars for sale at the mo, 3 on ebay.
Rob
That's interesting, thanks Rob.THe MK3's are having a bit of a resurgence with the BRSCC averaging around 18 cars per round, seeing as high as 26 with high to mid 20's expected. Cars are about 10k to buy and run standard engines, gearboxes, diffs and brakes. Everything else being specified in the regs. Parts are cheap to come buy with complete spare cars now available for around £2500.
Engines are a bit of a week point, but the 2009 on engines are stronger. All the cars are evenly matched with 1 second seperating the top 10 at most tracks.
We have seen some excellent policing of regs this year, with 1 competitor being excluded for running a short shift kit.
There are currently 5 cars for sale at the mo, 3 on ebay.
Rob
It's a good point you make about choosing a championship with tight regulations to allow a fair level of competition. I have to say the MK1 MX5 racing does appeal just down to the cost of cars appearing to be around £4k rather than £10k.
When you talk about the MK!'s not having very tight regs, do you include the 750MC championship in that or are you talking about BRSCC?
Having seen the 2 part race format in the CSCC Magnificent 7's I'm talking to a friend about sharing a car, which would be a great starter and cost saver.
The regs don't seem to be so tight in that series so it may be only class wins possible without spending big money.
Does anyone know of any other series that have 2 part races that can be shared?
The regs don't seem to be so tight in that series so it may be only class wins possible without spending big money.
Does anyone know of any other series that have 2 part races that can be shared?
[quote]
When you talk about the MK!'s not having very tight regs, do you include the 750MC championship in that or are you talking about BRSCC?
[/quote]
I'm not sure trick engines or open regs are the problem but there's a big difference between a 15-20 year old 100,000 mile engine, one that's had a set of bearing and rings and one that's been fully rebuild by someone who knows about building racing engines
When you talk about the MK!'s not having very tight regs, do you include the 750MC championship in that or are you talking about BRSCC?
[/quote]
I'm not sure trick engines or open regs are the problem but there's a big difference between a 15-20 year old 100,000 mile engine, one that's had a set of bearing and rings and one that's been fully rebuild by someone who knows about building racing engines
tomperkins said:
Having seen the 2 part race format in the CSCC Magnificent 7's I'm talking to a friend about sharing a car, which would be a great starter and cost saver.
The regs don't seem to be so tight in that series so it may be only class wins possible without spending big money.
Does anyone know of any other series that have 2 part races that can be shared?
Sharing a car is good - I've been lucky enough to race other people's car's that I could never afford to buy. But you need to be careful re being crystal clear about who is paying for what. It's one thing biffing it; it's another if your mate buzzes an engine and it needs to be stripped to see if there's top end damage. I've never raced a car belonging to someone else without having enough cash in the bank to pay for a new engine or chassis.The regs don't seem to be so tight in that series so it may be only class wins possible without spending big money.
Does anyone know of any other series that have 2 part races that can be shared?
Some of the high end Caterhams in Mag 7's are proper weapons. The CSCC are also nice people and offer reasonable VFM, if not as good as it used to be. Andy97 on here is the man on the inside re the CSCC stuff.
There are now quite a few copies of their mini-endurance races, 750 MC's Roadsports springs to mind and the MSVR Series. Cheeky plug - I have a race TVR Griffith for sale for not much money which would be competitve in those series!
If it was me, I'd work out how much I have to spend on the car, how much per season to run it, and what you want from your racing. When I bought my current car, I wanted a historic single sweater, less than £20K, fairly cheap to run, that I could race abroad. This led me naturally to where I am now - historic Formula Ford.
Carnage said:
Sharing a car is good - I've been lucky enough to race other people's car's that I could never afford to buy. But you need to be careful re being crystal clear about who is paying for what. It's one thing biffing it; it's another if your mate buzzes an engine and it needs to be stripped to see if there's top end damage. I've never raced a car belonging to someone else without having enough cash in the bank to pay for a new engine or chassis.
Some of the high end Caterhams in Mag 7's are proper weapons. The CSCC are also nice people and offer reasonable VFM, if not as good as it used to be. Andy97 on here is the man on the inside re the CSCC stuff.
There are now quite a few copies of their mini-endurance races, 750 MC's Roadsports springs to mind and the MSVR Series. Cheeky plug - I have a race TVR Griffith for sale for not much money which would be competitve in those series!
If it was me, I'd work out how much I have to spend on the car, how much per season to run it, and what you want from your racing. When I bought my current car, I wanted a historic single sweater, less than £20K, fairly cheap to run, that I could race abroad. This led me naturally to where I am now - historic Formula Ford.
Cool, thanks for the advice.Some of the high end Caterhams in Mag 7's are proper weapons. The CSCC are also nice people and offer reasonable VFM, if not as good as it used to be. Andy97 on here is the man on the inside re the CSCC stuff.
There are now quite a few copies of their mini-endurance races, 750 MC's Roadsports springs to mind and the MSVR Series. Cheeky plug - I have a race TVR Griffith for sale for not much money which would be competitve in those series!
If it was me, I'd work out how much I have to spend on the car, how much per season to run it, and what you want from your racing. When I bought my current car, I wanted a historic single sweater, less than £20K, fairly cheap to run, that I could race abroad. This led me naturally to where I am now - historic Formula Ford.
Carnage said:
The CSCC are also nice people and offer reasonable VFM, if not as good as it used to be. Andy97 on here is the man on the inside re the CSCC stuff.
I heard my name mentioned!.....CSCC do try and offer as reasonable VfM as its possible to do and the emphasis is on good value, low hassle and good, clean racing.
MSVR offer 2 x similar series - TrackDay and TrackTeam Trophy, whilst 750 offer Roadsports. There are similarities between the 3 clubs and there are differences, but the one thing the CSCC does offer is a number of series that are all of the 40 min length with a pit stop for a driver change (single drivers get out and get back in again). These series offer a choice for the customer so there is something for most car type interests and most budgets. Our series range from "Swinging Sixties" for those cars from the, er, Sixties to "Future Classics" for cars from the 70s and 80s; "Modern Classics" for cars mainly from the 90s; to "New Millenium" (a new series for 2015) for cars mainly from the year 2000, or for those with a bit of aero or sequential gearboxes. We also offer the "Magnificent Sevens" series for Locaterfields and "Tin Tops" for hatches and saloons up to 2 litres of any age.
Some cars can clearly be eligible for more than one series and some people do more than one race.
In most of our series the car body shells have to be of the original size and shape, the engines have to be of the original type (but can be modified) and the gearboxes have to be of the same type as original. Other mods to brakes or weight reduction etc are allowed. Some people spend a fortune, others race very cheaply. I have raced a £2K Fiat Uno, a £600-00 Alfa 33 and now race a cheap Porsche 924S. I share my car whenever I can to share costs, and my co-driver gives me a few quid to cover a "hire" fee, consumables etc.
Racing with CSCC also provides the opportunity to race at Spa (once you have gained a Nat A licence)
Sharing a car can be an issue but plenty of people do it and it seems to work out OK as long as the basis is understood. It certainly makes it more affordable. I guess the trick is to race a car for which there are plenty of parts available and nothing too trick to be expensive if it goes wrong!
If I was starting out now, I might look at a Mk1 MX5 and race that in either Future Classics or Modern Classics or both; an MX5 Mk3 and race that in Modern Classics, a Ginetta G20 and race that in Modern Classics or a Lotus Elise for Modern Classics. There is also the Dunlop Ford Puma Cup Challenge which races within our Tin Top series and new cars can be bought for about £6500 plus VAT, there are 3 cars that are one season old for sale now for £6K all in, I think. They were built by EMC Motorsport in Birmingham who established the series and the tight regs. All of these car options have good spares availability and largely bullet proof engines (if you do buzz a Zetec in a Ginetta go and get another from the scrapyard for £500?)
Driving standards are good, and where they are not the miscreants are often asked not to race with us again. We have had loads of novices start their racing with us and we will always try and help people through the daunting propect that a race meeting can be for the first few times.
We are racing at Oulton Park this Saturday (20th). If you are near there then come and have a look and chat. I am in a scruffy black Porsche 924S (#37), happy to help if I can.
Best wishes, whatever you decide.
Andy
Edited by andy97 on Friday 19th September 13:01
A lot of the CSCC races are 40 minutes with optional driver change.
or there is Production BMW and Toyo Tires Racing Saloons - a lot of people run the same car in each, but different driver.
The problem with two friends sharing a car is when a car is unable to compete - who pays for what and unless you know the score, it could spoil a friendship.
The you bend it, you mend it agreement is ok for some aspects, but there are others which are somewhat harder to pin down - for example: Driver 1 makes a hamfisted gear change, leading to an over-rev. It was the last lap of the race and he finishes, but during the next race weekend with driver 2 in control of the car a rod bolt breaks and lunches the engine. Driver 2 wasn't doing anything wrong. What happens next?
or there is Production BMW and Toyo Tires Racing Saloons - a lot of people run the same car in each, but different driver.
The problem with two friends sharing a car is when a car is unable to compete - who pays for what and unless you know the score, it could spoil a friendship.
The you bend it, you mend it agreement is ok for some aspects, but there are others which are somewhat harder to pin down - for example: Driver 1 makes a hamfisted gear change, leading to an over-rev. It was the last lap of the race and he finishes, but during the next race weekend with driver 2 in control of the car a rod bolt breaks and lunches the engine. Driver 2 wasn't doing anything wrong. What happens next?
andrewcliffe said:
The problem with two friends sharing a car is when a car is unable to compete - who pays for what and unless you know the score, it could spoil a friendship.
The you bend it, you mend it agreement is ok for some aspects, but there are others which are somewhat harder to pin down - for example: Driver 1 makes a hamfisted gear change, leading to an over-rev. It was the last lap of the race and he finishes, but during the next race weekend with driver 2 in control of the car a rod bolt breaks and lunches the engine. Driver 2 wasn't doing anything wrong. What happens next?
That's a very fair point, Andrew, but in my view the owner of the car charges the "hire fee" so that over the course of a season a potential engine "lunch" or rebuild is covered by the money "in the bank"! Race a simply modified car with a Zetec, or something like a Puma, or Clio and you should be able to get a second hand engine cheaply. My 924S is a largely standard engine with a fast road cam and a new ECU; there is a Porsche breaker down the road from me who has already told me that if I bust my engine I can have a 924S/ 944 engine for £350, and hopefully put the existing head on it. It can be done.The you bend it, you mend it agreement is ok for some aspects, but there are others which are somewhat harder to pin down - for example: Driver 1 makes a hamfisted gear change, leading to an over-rev. It was the last lap of the race and he finishes, but during the next race weekend with driver 2 in control of the car a rod bolt breaks and lunches the engine. Driver 2 wasn't doing anything wrong. What happens next?
Race something exotic or unusual, for which parts or expertise are not easily available, and the £££ will mount.
Edited by andy97 on Friday 19th September 13:08
I am one of the organisers for the Championship that's run under the 750MC (not sure if i am allowed to say which under the forum rules)and can confirm that the 750 is one of the best run clubs out there, very friendly and welcoming to all levels of ability and budget. Any championship or series under their banner wont steer you wrong. I happen to organise one of the formulas that would suit the requirements you have mentioned, feel free to PM me if you would like more info but as a clue, RWD, Tintop, German. Season can be run for 2-3k, car home built would be around 4-5k depending on your level of spannering, all cars are built to the same spec from the suspension to the roll cage, Pre-built ranges from 5-9k depending on the level of detail and how well it is known, for example the 2013 championship winning car is currently up for 8.5k where as a very well built car that never saw the podium but had the potential too in the right hands is up for under 6.
Oh and they remain road legal too.
Oh and they remain road legal too.
apart from the varieties in formula you might also want to consider travel. I live near to Castle Coombe. They have thing called the Castle Coombe racing club which offers three different car types each in their own races. There are 6 rounds all at Coombe.
If I had the cash to go racing I would do that as the circuit is local so minimal travel costs and no worries about hotels or camping etc.
Not sure where you live or if you mentioned it in the thread (TL:DR). Might be something to consider if your local circuit does similar.
If I had the cash to go racing I would do that as the circuit is local so minimal travel costs and no worries about hotels or camping etc.
Not sure where you live or if you mentioned it in the thread (TL:DR). Might be something to consider if your local circuit does similar.
tomperkins said:
That's interesting, thanks Rob.
It's a good point you make about choosing a championship with tight regulations to allow a fair level of competition. I have to say the MK1 MX5 racing does appeal just down to the cost of cars appearing to be around £4k rather than £10k.
When you talk about the MK!'s not having very tight regs, do you include the 750MC championship in that or are you talking about BRSCC?
With regards to regs, the MK3 BRSCC supercup has tight regulations. One driver has been disqualified this year for cheating.It's a good point you make about choosing a championship with tight regulations to allow a fair level of competition. I have to say the MK1 MX5 racing does appeal just down to the cost of cars appearing to be around £4k rather than £10k.
When you talk about the MK!'s not having very tight regs, do you include the 750MC championship in that or are you talking about BRSCC?
The BRSCC MX5 Mk1's are a bit more fluid and as they have been raced for so long you are racing against years of development. The cost is higher as the front runners are reportedly having several engines a year and are spending large sums on those engines. I discounted it as i would need an engine rebuild and probably a diff rebuild a year, which mounts up. I heard that one front runner was having an engine a meeting!
The MK3's on the whole seem to be more reliable, although we are as a championship going through 3rd gear synchros at an alarming rate, we also lost a few engines this weekend, but they are standard so are easily replaced and the 2009 on version seems to be more reliable with a stronger bottom end. The championnship is really friendly (everyone say's that) so we are all sharing info on oils etc, to try and improve the longevity.
Depends what you want, we are at donnigton on the 18th Oct so come and have a look.
Bertrum said:
With regards to regs, the MK3 BRSCC supercup has tight regulations. One driver has been disqualified this year for cheating.
The BRSCC MX5 Mk1's are a bit more fluid and as they have been raced for so long you are racing against years of development. The cost is higher as the front runners are reportedly having several engines a year and are spending large sums on those engines. I discounted it as i would need an engine rebuild and probably a diff rebuild a year, which mounts up. I heard that one front runner was having an engine a meeting!
The MK3's on the whole seem to be more reliable, although we are as a championship going through 3rd gear synchros at an alarming rate, we also lost a few engines this weekend, but they are standard so are easily replaced and the 2009 on version seems to be more reliable with a stronger bottom end. The championnship is really friendly (everyone say's that) so we are all sharing info on oils etc, to try and improve the longevity.
Depends what you want, we are at donnigton on the 18th Oct so come and have a look.
I may well do that, thanks.The BRSCC MX5 Mk1's are a bit more fluid and as they have been raced for so long you are racing against years of development. The cost is higher as the front runners are reportedly having several engines a year and are spending large sums on those engines. I discounted it as i would need an engine rebuild and probably a diff rebuild a year, which mounts up. I heard that one front runner was having an engine a meeting!
The MK3's on the whole seem to be more reliable, although we are as a championship going through 3rd gear synchros at an alarming rate, we also lost a few engines this weekend, but they are standard so are easily replaced and the 2009 on version seems to be more reliable with a stronger bottom end. The championnship is really friendly (everyone say's that) so we are all sharing info on oils etc, to try and improve the longevity.
Depends what you want, we are at donnigton on the 18th Oct so come and have a look.
Bertrum said:
The BRSCC MX5 Mk1's are a bit more fluid and as they have been raced for so long you are racing against years of development. The cost is higher as the front runners are reportedly having several engines a year and are spending large sums on those engines.
This is just utter b
ks. I know one of the Mk1 front runners very well and he has been using the same engine for two full season with no work done to it and the same diff. The engine has also not had a fortune spent on it. A head skim and triple angle valve seats don't exactly break the bank and its good enough to win races, if you can drive.Mk3s are inherently more unreliable. Engines, gearboxes and diffs all see regular failures and are considerably more expensive to replace than Mk1 parts.
You need to be careful as people will always push you towards the series they run in and probably fill you full of crap along the way, convincing you its the best thing ever and all other series are too expensive or too competitive. I don't race Mx5s at all so I don't have a drum to bang.
I reckon Mx5s, Compact Cup, PBMW or Caterham Grads would all be a great place to start your financial ruin.
/2p
Dan
Edited by djroadboy on Monday 22 September 23:57
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff