CSSC Modern Classics....been great

CSSC Modern Classics....been great

Author
Discussion

DG27

Original Poster:

153 posts

168 months

Tuesday 7th October 2014
quotequote all
The end of season two for me in my 968, it's been great, I have got more confident with the car and various new circuits, the entrants are nice people and the racing has been enjoyable every time, my lap times are getting better, the car has been fettled but.........now is this normal I wonder.....or do I need counselling?

M3s dominate and it's difficult to get into the top 10 overall so class wins are never going to happen.....I need a faster car or a series where the racing is closer......I have thought about a cupcar as I want to race a 911 but driving a road 458, I have also started looking at 430 challenge cars....a recent 360 challenge has put me in the mood.

So big dilemma......it's not directly a cost thing which is fortunate it's more moving my experience on another level.

Or do I try another season at CSSC or a season of Porsche Club on slicks/wets.....that would be new I guess.

HELP!


andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Tuesday 7th October 2014
quotequote all
DG27 said:
The end of season two for me in my 968, it's been great, I have got more confident with the car and various new circuits, the entrants are nice people and the racing has been enjoyable every time, my lap times are getting better, the car has been fettled but.........now is this normal I wonder.....or do I need counselling?

M3s dominate and it's difficult to get into the top 10 overall so class wins are never going to happen.....I need a faster car or a series where the racing is closer......I have thought about a cupcar as I want to race a 911 but driving a road 458, I have also started looking at 430 challenge cars....a recent 360 challenge has put me in the mood.

So big dilemma......it's not directly a cost thing which is fortunate it's more moving my experience on another level.

Or do I try another season at CSSC or a season of Porsche Club on slicks/wets.....that would be new I guess.

HELP!
David, plenty of people will tempt you to their series, but better the devil you know? Lol!

You could try a 944 Turbo in Future Classics. Very competitive cars and tuneable and I know where Mark Koebele's previously series winning car is for sale. Alternatively there is the new for 2015 "New Millenium" series if you want somewhere to race a 360 or 430 Challenge car, a 911 GT3 Cup car or how about a Ginetta G50?

Personally, I hope that you stay a while longer in Modern Classics, continue to improve your lap times and show that a 968 is competitive in its class. See you at Snetterton?

BAZZ69

64 posts

177 months

Tuesday 7th October 2014
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Unfortunately David you are in the same boat as me and Luke. It is not possible to be competitive in class D of modern classics in a front engined porsche anymore. Its a shame because i really like the class. We are fortunate that we can move to future classics. It does seem a shame though to leave the class that you really like. A good bunch of guys and really good drivers, we shall miss you. Bazz

bromers2

1,867 posts

249 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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As a novice, in my 2nd year too, I'm in a similar boat - imo I think the classes are spread out too much in this series, there was a bit of close racing on the first couple of laps but after that (35 mins) it was just a matter of lapping back markers and racing through a pit stop (still disagree with the set time process when using Hans Devices etc)

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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I'm very happy to discuss an alternative class structure, what are your suggestions?

In what way do the pit stop regs need changing?

majordad

3,600 posts

196 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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Andy, I think he s refering to the hairy old chestnut of the disadvantage faced by Hans drivers. IMHO it need a rethink and the arguments put forth heretofore overcome. Wearing a Hans in Modern Classics costs you time.

Graham

16,368 posts

283 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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we run a couple of cars in the swinging sixties and classic K, ( mgb's) both the drivers use hans and our pitstop times are amongst the quickest so we dont see any penalty for Hans. Admittedly we do have 2 helpers to get the driver out and back in and belted, so I can see it being more difficult if on your own.

As to classes its always going to be a compromise, and one car will always have some sort of advantage (imho) the only way you get around that is single model and even then some are more equal than others !!! We have the same problem with the TVRs, a wide model range and 4 classes what ever we do someone is at a disadvantage without a class for each car !!! My take has always pick a car you like, and run that to the best of it and your ability after all your going to be spending a lot of time/ money on the blinking thing so you may as well like it..

majordad

3,600 posts

196 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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The Hans def slows you down, you cant bend your head enough to make a fast exit/entry, mine bangs off the roof and needs a conscious neck movement and wriggle. I ve timed myself both ways and without Hans is 5 secs faster.

BAZZ69

64 posts

177 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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You know my take on it Andy. Modern classics evolved from deutche marque.Class D then was 2500cc to 3000cc. But 3000cc with variable cam timing cars were class E. To me 2500cc to 3200 is to bigger gap. 70 to 100bhp difference .Bazz

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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And that is just the start, it is well known that some of those M3s had a lot more than stock power. Back in 2011 I wasn't racing just doing a few track days but decided to enter the Porsche Club championship races over the Britcar weekend at Silverstone (triple header). That was a real eye opener car after car nailed to each others bumpers I absolutely loved how close it all was. That weekend sucked me back into something I had walked away from (racing). Shame they went crazy on slicks and costs though.

David the NineX guys have been looking at racing those cars you mention, Andy the proprietor used to race Ferraris and since he also raced a 968 he should be able to give you some comparitive pointers.

shim

2,050 posts

207 months

Wednesday 8th October 2014
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we were in a couple of rounds in our blue e36 325, and finishing off the season in one of the mx5s whilst we get head start on transforming the 325 into an M3 (sorry)

looking forward to 2015.

i love the lack of detail to the rules, but the pit stops are a massive issue as typically a bad stop can cost you 2-4 secs a laps which is disproportionate to the differences in lap times in each class group. i dont have any suggestions or real feeling it should change massively but maybe just a mandatory stationary period in the pits.

Graham

16,368 posts

283 months

Thursday 9th October 2014
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shim said:
but the pit stops are a massive issue as typically a bad stop can cost you
I think thats the whole point of the pit stop, another facet where a good strategy can bump you up the grid and a bad one cock it up.. I'd say they've got that be spot on..


:-)

G

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Thursday 9th October 2014
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OK folks, there are a number of different elements on this thread but I will try to give my PERSONAL view on as many as I can.

The Class Structure:

We have 7 different classes:

Class A – 3201cc and over (and all >3 litre BMW)
Class B - Post 1 Jan 2000 front wheel drive upto 2 litre forced induction cars and front wheel drive normally aspirated cars above 2 litre
Class C – All 4WD forced induction cars up to 2000cc
Class D - 2501 cc to 3200cc
Class E – 1801cc to 2500cc
Class F – 1601cc to 1800cc
Class G – Up to 1600cc

I would have thought that was enough and that the class split gave something for everyone, and catered for the widest participation possible. One of our key aims. Unfortunately, it is absolutely impossible to have classes which are designed to cover every single car make or type; there will always be some cars that are unintentionally better suited to a class than another. We moved the 3.2 litre M3s precicely because they were too quick for their class.

If we had a 2.5 litre to 3 litre Class and then a 3 litre to 3.5 litre Class then the Boxsters and Vectras may be disadvantaged against the BMW M3s etc. You guys may go for that, but I doubt the Boxster guys would? What would be a better class structure that is fair to all? I have asked before, and not had a response.

For the moment we wont go down the Power to Weight ratio class structure - its just too expensive and too open to cheating. You have to have a rolling road at each meeting and this is just unaffordable. There is no clamour from our other series to go down this route, so the the cost of it would have to be born by the Modern Classics racers alone. It would also add significant time hassle to the meeting as everyone would have to be weighed and power tested after each track session.

The competiveness of the front engined Porsches:

I have always said that the best place for the 944S2s is in Future Classics. That said Luke Jmohnson'e performance in a 944S2 shows what can be achieved. It also shows that the 968s (roughly the same weight but about 40 Bhp more) in Modern Classics are not performing to their potential.

At Brands Luke's fastest lap was 56.18; the fastest MC 968 was 58.04. Luke was fastest lap in his class which included the Vectra but no Boxster.

In comparison in 2012 (the last time the PCGB series raced on List 1B tyres) the fastest 944S2 was 57.1 and the fastest 968 was 55.25.

At Donington Luke's fastest lap was 1 min 20.9 for 4th overall (hardly uncompetitive); the fastest MC 968 was 1 min 23.8. Luke equalled the fastest class lap mtime, which was the Vextra and was faster than Dave's 993 RSR.

The 2012 PCGB 944S2 lapped their in 1 min 23.4 and the 968 in 1 min 20.3

At Oulton Luke did not race but the fastest 968 was 2 min 12.1. The fastest class lap was 1 min 56.5 (a Boxster)

The 2012 PCGB times were: 944S2 - 2 min 02.4 and their 968 was 1 min 56.9.

I have ony looked at the relative times for 944S2s and 968s in PCGB for 2012, but I am told that their performances were even quicker in earlier years with other drivers in them, Ben Demetriou.

My conclusions to this is that:

1. Luke is a very quick driver. Put Luke in a 968 and he will chgallenge for wins

2. The 968 can be competitive in its class

One of the tricks, I suppose, is to choose the car that best matches the series regs. I still think that a 968 is a good car to have, and that's where my money would be if I had the cash, because they have great stability and cornering speed.

Performance differentials within classes:

It is true that there are probably big horsepower differences between cars in the same class. It is true in all of our series, and most of our classes, probably. There are also big weight differences and differences in wheel sizes or drag coefficients. We make no pretence that there will be a Balance of Performance. If we equalised power in some way, then there would be an argument about other performance characteristics. I have seen it in Britcar.

Personally, I think that the biggest performance difference is the driver in many cases. See my notes about the relative performance of the front engine Porsches.

I guess most people just pick their peoples to race against from around them on the grid and enjoy whatever battles they are having.


Pit Stops:

The unlimited pit stops are one of the differentiators between us and other series. For as many people that don't like them thier are many others that tell us that they prefer them unlimited because it gives their family and friends a chance to be part of the performance, and to help gain an advantage at a pit stop over another team, ie its not just about on track performance. The pit stop is part of the race; if we had a fixed 1 minute stop, that would no longer be the case.

I accept that things may be a little slower with a HANS device but the fastest pit stops we have timed were in FC where the driver completed his pit stop in 22 seconds wearing a HANS. He practiced many, many times. I don't actually see that many people practicing pit stops, myself included.

If you need help at a pit stop because you are on your own, please ask others to help. Make it clear to me that you want assistance and we will try and arrange something. We are a friendly club and lots of people will help each other out if they are asked.

Other series:

There are a couple of other series with a similar product. MSVR have power to weigh and fixed pit stops. 750 have power to weight and allow aero and have fixed time pit stops, and we have a free pit stops, no non standard aero and relatively few eligibiity criteria to meet. Its important that we are all differentiated from each other and offer something different to match different customer requirements.


No series is perfect and these issues are discussed all of the time by the Committee and individually with competitors at race meetings and via e-mail, so we are listening! As mentioned, we moved the 3.2 litre M3s because of competitors concerns, but we can't move everyone! But, at the moment for as many people I get telling me the class structure is not right, I get as many saying they are happy. I have even been told we have too many classes and a couple should be amalgamated.

Please, instead of telling me the class structure is wrong, give me an alternative to consider that is fairer to all because, believe me, I have thought about it a great deal, and taken the opinion of others, not just those who post on here and I am fresh out of ideas for a different structure that remains true to the clubs principles of keeping it simple, being inclusive, encouraging wide participation and getting decent sized grids.




Edited by andy97 on Thursday 9th October 18:28

steeviegeebies

196 posts

144 months

Thursday 9th October 2014
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To support Andy's point - last year I enjoyed a season of nose to tail racing in my 968 against Luke and Bazz in their 944s in CSCC Modern Classics. If you're not competitive with similar cars in MC then don't expect to be any more competitive elsewhere, especially championships like PCGB. You'll end up spending tons more just to run near the back. Better to spend the difference on a VBox, driver training and car set up to get up near the front in CSCC. Oh and you'll still have enough left over to race with them at Spa. smile

DG27

Original Poster:

153 posts

168 months

Friday 10th October 2014
quotequote all
I seem to have sparked a thread here about CSSC Modern Classics, my original point being that I am not finding for me personally that close a racing experience. After the first few laps its follow my leader until I get over taken by the faster cars.

The plus side as a beginner (just 18 months racing now) has been space to learn car control, experience all that is involved in a race day and gain confidence in picking up speed. I know I have more to give in this car but after coaching, vbox etc etc not much more. I could lighten the car a bit I also know.

I actually think the pitstop's are fine as I am quite quick with Hans and often make up 2 or 3 places by being so which I do like so wouldn't want to change that process, having a crew with me helps that.

I do think that the class I am in should be max 3 litre but I also accept I am prob not quick enough in my own car yet to push it to the max.

My possible inclination towards PCGB is because of tv coverage which will help me with sponsorship I reckon, I did quite well these past two years but feel I can scale up with tv coverage.

D

jboult

43 posts

254 months

Friday 10th October 2014
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andy97 said:
1. Luke is a very quick driver. Put Luke in a 968 and he will chgallenge for wins
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 9th October 18:28
Not in my 968 he wouldn't! Although I take the point and he would undoubtedly be far quicker than I am. Mine suits me as a novice but it's pretty road standard and far too heavy to be really competitive. Of course, this is in no way the fault of the class structure.

Getting the first season out of the way is my focus, and then as someone else in the thread suggested more coaching is my #1 priority. I'm confident there's at least a couple of easy seconds to find on most circuits we've been to this season. Once the car starts becoming the limiting factor rather than the driver then I'll look at changing it over for a fully prepped 968 or 944 (DG - what's happening with your car?!).

I realise this doesn't add anything to the class structure discussion. For what it's worth, at the upcoming Snetterton meeting my class consists of two Boxsters, Neville's Vectra and me. I'm not expecting a class win...

J

wildman0609

885 posts

175 months

Friday 10th October 2014
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I don't totally understand the problems here, but looking at TSL for cscc results, 1st 2 races this season Snett 300 and Silverstone nat (can't be bothered to look further)

on snett 300 a 968 on list 1b tyres can get well into the 2:12s so should qualify in the top 5,
silverstone national a 968 can get into low 1:06s, which would also be top 5 on the grid.

FYI, if you want to race a 911, just do it. There is nothing comparable to a 911. I raced a 944 S2 for years then switched to a 964, initially I wasn't much quicker, but I was having way more fun. the feeling you get sitting behind those famous 5 dials, with that flat 6 howling behind you, the floor hinged pedals, its an experience not to be missed. You'll also have to forget most of what you've learnt in the 968, a 911 drives totally differently.

DG27

Original Poster:

153 posts

168 months

Tuesday 14th October 2014
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John B, re your question on the 968 it's a keeper if I do CSSC next year, it's also a keeper if I decide to do Porsche Club, but I might sell it if I swap the type of racing I do. A lot has been spent on it so it's good to go for next season whilst dry stored over the winter. D

woof

8,456 posts

276 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
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The PCGB series is unbelievable expensive for what it is.
I had planned to do it this year but once I saw the weight and power regs I was pretty obvious that a Boxster couldn't be competitive
You need a 996 to win - it's the only car that stands a chance.

Tyre cost - testing and racing expect to pay in the region of £25k + for tyres. There's no point turning up with old tyres.

It's crazy costs for what it is. Top driver/team budget must be £75k upwards I've heard of some spending over £100k
Some teams are using live telemetry !

It is great racing on slicks. But these are road cars and I just don't think they are up to task.
I'm coming back to Modern Classic next season in the Boxster and will do some 750MC and maybe the odd Britcar race, pending what they do next year.


Mark Benson

7,498 posts

268 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
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I think the problem here for the OP is class racing.
The only way you're likely to have consistent wheel to wheel racing whatever your skill level and budget is in a single make championship where the machinery is (in theory) equivalent.

Class racing allows those of us with diverse machinery or a car that's not eligible/economical to race in a single make series a place to get on track and race, but the organisers have to put lines of demarcation somewhere and try as they might (and most do), they'll never make the playing field completely level.
It's up to the competitors to get their machinery and/or skills to a level that they can compete against others in their class, which is often expensive and usually frustrating.

A lot of class based championships have a particular car that does well and inevitably new and existing entrants will gravitate towards that car, crowding out anyone who doesn't want or can't afford to change their car - the only solution then is to develop or change your car if possible or accept it and treat your racing as a bit of fun, you might find (as I have in the past) that the class structure changes or that some small rule change allows you to modify your car to be competitive again.
The only other alternative is to accept that the championship doesn't give you what you need and move to a single-make series or one where your car will be a front runner (just don't expect it to stay that way).