Early apexing - need a slap!

[Dollyman1850]

Everytime I trail brake in my car I come out of the corner facing the wrong way

Some cars aren't suited to trail braking.
N.

[ginettajoe]

Dollyman1850 said:

Everytime I trail brake in my car I come out of the corner facing the wrong way

Some cars aren't suited to trail braking.
N.

...... every car is suited to trailbraking, no matter what the configuration is!! It doesn't matter whether it is front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or four wheel drive, nor does it matter whether the engine is at the front, the rear, or in the middle!! It is, I'm afraid, something you aren't doing correctly!!

[johnfm]

spad78 said:

If you can't stop yourself turning in too early, then try trail braking from slightly later than you would normally and using the brakes to get the front end turned in - let the rear slightly loose and get on the throttle early and ta da you have the same exit as if you had turned in late

Trail braking for someone who has jus got their ARDS? I doubt it.

[johnfm]

ginettajoe said:

Dollyman1850 said:

Everytime I trail brake in my car I come out of the corner facing the wrong way

Some cars aren't suited to trail braking.
N.

...... every car is suited to trailbraking, no matter what the configuration is!! It doesn't matter whether it is front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or four wheel drive, nor does it matter whether the engine is at the front, the rear, or in the middle!! It is, I'm afraid, something you aren't doing correctly!!

Suggesting a novice track driver use trail braking is like telling a 30 handicap golfer to choke down on a 7 iron and hit a low draw - probably the right thing for a pro to do, but just not achievable for a novice.

Keeping it simple is probably the best advice to give any relative newcomer

[Dollyman1850]

ginettajoe said:

...... every car is suited to trailbraking, no matter what the configuration is!! It doesn't matter whether it is front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or four wheel drive, nor does it matter whether the engine is at the front, the rear, or in the middle!! It is, I'm afraid, something you aren't doing correctly!!

Oh believe me reversing out of the corner was definitely not what I intended….You say you charge for that sort of advice
N.

[benjj]

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

[Dollyman1850]

benjj said:

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

Yes it is difficult. very difficult in some cars. I disagree with Joe..Some short skittish powerful cars are not suited to it.. They are if you have lightning reflexes. Unfortunately I am the size of Gerry Marshall but fundamentally lacking any of his talent, and nor will I have anywhere approaching his talent. I can dream though and still have lots of fun.

Coming away from a club meet with a big grin on the face and a car in 1 piece is all that matters

N.

[NJH]

One word, setup.

OK more than one word, traction circle:
http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/DriveSim3.htm with regards to a point made earlier from the start, http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/Driving%20Simulato...

[ginettajoe]

There is no mystery about trailbraking, and I can categorically guarantee that I would have anyone of you using that method within five laps of a circuit, with a full understanding of how the physics of the car is benefitting from the technique! I mentioned initially about early turn-in, and now agreed with the other post on trailbraking! What you have to remember, is the enemy of a car lapping a circuit at optimum speed, is weight transfer!! Every car has a spring at each corner, and the only tool you have in the box to control weight transfer, are the brakes! To quote Mario Andretti, "you would be amazed at the number of drivers that think the brakes are just for stopping, or slowing the car, including many F1 drivers"!!!

[ginettajoe]

johnfm said:

spad78 said:

If you can't stop yourself turning in too early, then try trail braking from slightly later than you would normally and using the brakes to get the front end turned in - let the rear slightly loose and get on the throttle early and ta da you have the same exit as if you had turned in late

Trail braking for someone who has jus got their ARDS? I doubt it.

That would depend upon where you did your ARDS course, or with who you did it!! When I'm carrying out an ARDS course, one of the first things I explain to those people on the day, concerns weight transfer, the physics of how the car behaves, and more importantly how to control it! When I drive them round initially to familiarise them with the circuit, I also demonstrate the difference between turning in on the brakes, or coming off them before turning, and it is then that people realise the benefit!! So all I can say is, had I done your ARDS course, you would have gone away as an expert in trailbraking!!!

[ginettajoe]

Dollyman1850 said:

benjj said:

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

Yes it is difficult. very difficult in some cars. I disagree with Joe..Some short skittish powerful cars are not suited to it.. They are if you have lightning reflexes. Unfortunately I am the size of Gerry Marshall but fundamentally lacking any of his talent, and nor will I have anywhere approaching his talent. I can dream though and still have lots of fun.

Coming away from a club meet with a big grin on the face and a car in 1 piece is all that matters

N.

To answer your question from your earlier post, yes I do charge for my time in a car with someone! Secondly, I disagree with your theory on short skittish and powerful cars not being suited to the technique!! It doesn't matter how log, short, powerful, light, heavy or whatever a car is, if it has a spring at each corner, you have to "Manage" weight transfer!

[ginettajoe]

Talkwrench said:

Just remember what damp bends are like at a track like, say, Oulton Park.
You turn in too early and you'll probably end up spinning before you even reach the apex. Oh, hang on a minute......

Just reading this post, what is being said here is exactly why people spin!!! Think logically, the later you turn, the more steering input you have to create by turning the steering with a sense of urgency, that in turn unsettles the car, creates "understeer" and because there is no power being applied, the car then transfers into "oversteer" and the car spins!! It is exactly the opposite to your way of thinking, and in fact most things your head will encourage you to do when driving at speed, will be the opposite to what you should be doing!!

[ginettajoe]

benjj said:

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

There is a big difference between "left foot braking" in rallying, and "Trailbraking", in racing!! Both techniques are being used to achieve different results!! There is a place in racing for "left foot braking", but not something that would be used regularly!! It was a technique introduced in the eighties, with the advent of turbo cars, and it enabled the driver to apply some weight to the front of a car in a fast corner, whilst maintaining the turbo on boost!! Now, it is at certain corners, in certain cars, where the driver will be maintaining a high gear (no downchange), but needs to prevent any understeer!!

[slipstream 1985]

ginettajoe said:

slipstream 1985 said:

ginettajoe said:

slipstream 1985 said:

ginettajoe said:

I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....

might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straight

Er, how do you work that one out, when the exit speed is not compromised??

A late turn in will give you a straighter exit an shuld be quicker down the next straight

.... I see, so what you are saying us, if you travel an extra ten metres, make a much tighter turn at a slower speed, but gain an extra 5mph along the straight, your lap times will be quicker? The fact you can save at least half a second in each corner, maybe more, doesn't enter into it??

depends on the length of the straight. Lose a bit of time in the corner to gain more all the way down the next straight. However if it is a short straight with a braking point on it then better to have a higher corner speed.

[johnfm]

benjj said:

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

M8, I know you do 'quick driving' but it is a bit different (as you have found) on track. Was looking at some very interesting braking analysis the other day comparing the data from two drivers on the same day in the same car. 3 secs a lap ALL in the braking. Later, harder and get on the throttle earlier.

Surprising even how much time can be lost in gear changes. I will see if I can email you the analysis.

[ginettajoe]

johnfm said:

benjj said:

I'm new to racing, not quick driving

Trail braking is something I've tried a few times. I'm not very good at it I must say.

While rally driving, especially on the hillclimbs, I do a lot of left foot braking. I'm pretty good with the feel of the brake pedal through the wrong foot but with trail braking I don't seem to get the release timing right.

I'm not going to try and learn it ahead of this race, mainly as it's my first one and I'm in someone else's car

M8, I know you do 'quick driving' but it is a bit different (as you have found) on track. Was looking at some very interesting braking analysis the other day comparing the data from two drivers on the same day in the same car. 3 secs a lap ALL in the braking. Later, harder and get on the throttle earlier.

Surprising even how much time can be lost in gear changes. I will see if I can email you the analysis.

Yes, exactly!!! If you turn in off the brakes, the weight transfer will induce understeer! Whilst you have understeer, you can't get back on the power, because it will exaggerate the understeer, and cost you more time!! If you get the car into the corner "Flatly", by eliminating weight transfer, and ultimately eliminating understeer, the you are on the power the moment your foot has rolled off the brake!!!

[ginettajoe]

slipstream 1985 said:

ginettajoe said:

slipstream 1985 said:

ginettajoe said:

slipstream 1985 said:

ginettajoe said:

I read this thread with interest, and quite frankly, the quickest way through a corner, is to take the 'bike line, which as I'm sure you will agree is a very early turn!! I have coached two Championship winners this season, both setting fastest laps, lap records etc, and the one regular comment made about those drivers is they don't even look as though they are trying, they look as though they are on rails!!! Think about it .....

might be quick through the corner but won't be quick down the following straight

Er, how do you work that one out, when the exit speed is not compromised??

A late turn in will give you a straighter exit an shuld be quicker down the next straight

.... I see, so what you are saying us, if you travel an extra ten metres, make a much tighter turn at a slower speed, but gain an extra 5mph along the straight, your lap times will be quicker? The fact you can save at least half a second in each corner, maybe more, doesn't enter into it??

depends on the length of the straight. Lose a bit of time in the corner to gain more all the way down the next straight. However if it is a short straight with a braking point on it then better to have a higher corner speed.

.... it would have to be a very long straight, and realistically, the only time you would want to take that late turn in, would be somewhere like Croft, when you were planning to start your "fast" qualifying lap, giving you the highest possible speed across the startline, and as you completed that lap, revert back to an earlier turn, because it will be the quickest way through the corner, and to complete the lap!!

[slipstream 1985]

So are you saying that on a 90 right or left you would apex early trail brake to corner with a bit of slip angle to counter for the tightening of the corner from the early turn in?

[ginettajoe]

slipstream 1985 said:

So are you saying that on a 90 right or left you would apex early trail brake to corner with a bit of slip angle to counter for the tightening of the corner from the early turn in?

No, the apex needs to be late, to give enough width at the exit to have the wheels straight at the earliest opportunity, and therefore, maximum power!!

[slipstream 1985]

ginettajoe said:

slipstream 1985 said:

So are you saying that on a 90 right or left you would apex early trail brake to corner with a bit of slip angle to counter for the tightening of the corner from the early turn in?

No, the apex needs to be late, to give enough width at the exit to have the wheels straight at the earliest opportunity, and therefore, maximum power!!

How can you apex late and turn in early. Thats a contradiction