Early apexing - need a slap!

[Jerry Can]

here are some videos to explain the theories discused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsbUAl0NAWU trail and threshold braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=995_XLR62Vc line technique (early late turn in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIH61q23O8 - slalom

[johnfm]

Greensleeves said:

johnfm said:

Main thing for slow novices is to check the mirrors a lot and let the fast guys through without incident. Moving roadblocks are dangerous....

Thanks for assuming that because we accept that we are not perfect that we are slow. ( probably not intended that way but unfortunately how it came across)

I'm the portly one in the middle

It came across that way because I know Ben well and was winding him up.

But on a serious note, the problem with novices is not just that they are usually slower than experienced drivers, but that they don't acknowledge that they are and lack awareness and track craft compared to, say, doing a track day.

At the end of the day what I said about checking mirrors and getting out of the way is all about safety - nobody wants to get hurt while playing 'racing driver'.

[benjj]

Johnfm is my navigator and is prone to a bit of piss taking

While we're at it he's almost certainly the least qualified person on this thread to comment (Inc me) as he doesn't have a racing licence or any experience doing it anyway

[johnfm]

benjj said:

Johnfm is my navigator and is prone to a bit of piss taking

While we're at it he's almost certainly the least qualified person on this thread to comment (Inc me) as he doesn't have a racing licence or any experience doing it anyway

If having a 'racing licence' is a pre-requisite for the ability to find an apex (or commenting on it) how'd you get one?

Managed to find plenty of apexes in my GT3 at the ring, Leipzig, Brands Hatch, Croft, et al.

Edited by johnfm on Wednesday 22 October 10:42

[ginettajoe]

Jerry Can said:

here are some videos to explain the theories discused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsbUAl0NAWU trail and threshold braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=995_XLR62Vc line technique (early late turn in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIH61q23O8 - slalom

Hmmm, I would say that was very basic information, and not entirely correct relating to braking and lines! It isn't incorrect, but more from a "performance drive", than a "race drive"!!!

[SlipStream77]

Have you tried using turn-in points, in the same way that you use braking points?

[ginettajoe]

SlipStream77 said:

Have you tried using turn-in points, in the same way that you use braking points?

Hi, I'm not too sure what you mean in this respect, maybe you can be more specific?

[SlipStream77]

ginettajoe said:

SlipStream77 said:

Have you tried using turn-in points, in the same way that you use braking points?

Hi, I'm not too sure what you mean in this respect, maybe you can be more specific?

Essentially, you just use a fixed marker at the trackside as the point at which you start to turn in.

[ginettajoe]

SlipStream77 said:

ginettajoe said:

SlipStream77 said:

Have you tried using turn-in points, in the same way that you use braking points?

Hi, I'm not too sure what you mean in this respect, maybe you can be more specific?

Essentially, you just use a fixed marker at the trackside as the point at which you start to turn in.

No, not really! I may use something that is in the area of track I'm intending to be, but sense my turn-in from looking through the corner, and knowing where I need to apex, turning relative to that point! Most trackday organisers used to cone circuits with brake, turn, apex and sometimes, exit cones, but again it is a thing of the past, and quite frankly, I doubt that it affects the safe running of the day!! When I'm coaching someone for the first time, I may use some reference points, but gradually wean them away from that, to just looking through the corner!

[Maxx]

benjj said:

>However, one thing I consistently get wrong is turning in too early.
>Has anyone else got any tips on how best to get this into my thick skull?

Ben,

Yes, vision. Wherever you look you will drive.

So, look where you want the car to be and that is not necessarily a point on the edge of the circuit. Take Redgate at Donington as an example. If you look across to the inside curb just before turn in you'll turn the car towards it whereas the apex is 2/3rds of the way round (out of sight). Even if you KNOW where the turning point is your brain won't let you wait that long and you'll turn early and apex early. Instead pick a point in the middle of the track on the way in and if you are progressively adding steering you will clip the apex precisely and at a higher speed.

[staceyboy]

SlipStream77 said:

Essentially, you just use a fixed marker at the trackside as the point at which you start to turn in.

I use this. There is normally somewhere you can pick up on. Think the 50 marker board at Copse at Silverstone is a decent example from memory. Other places are harder.

Doesn't have to be exact of course. Turning in halfway down the rumblestrip/curb as an example. Although it can feel slower/less dramatic, a good exit to a long straight will make more time overall than chucking it in at a right old lick, then having to wait ages to pick up the throttle.

[benjj]

Greensleeves said:

Hi Ben,

I know exactly where you are.

I did the Rally Yorkshire in an Escort and Oulton Park in the MR2 a week later and I do exactly what you are describing.

The way I taught myself how to not throw it in before the apex and steer with the loud pedal which works in an Escort in the forest but not an MR2 on a track, was by driving relatively slowly on the road. Pick a road with loads of obstacles like bends or roundabouts and go drive down it. At each obstacle you have one go at steering. Pick your turn in point and apex and apply some steering and keep the same lock throughout the corner. If you have to apply any correctional steering through the obstacle you have failed. I'm not saying this is the way to drive on track (although I do think it helps). It's a way of getting your brain to think of a different turn points and late apexes. You're allowed to wind lock off on the exit but not apply more lock without getting a fail. I tend to stick to my side of the road as well using the white line as the track limit. There's usually enough width to allow you to pick and choose lines but if not you can use all the road if it's safe and legal to do so. You can practice this at standard speeds and the cars around you and even your passengers will not know you're doing it apart from you cursing under your breath when you get a fail.

Give it a go and let me know how you get on.

Well chaps, crunch time this weekend

I've been religiously following Greensleeves' tip above and it has been a bit of a revelation - thanks

Let's see how we go. At least it's a bunch of amateur racers.

Oh no, wait...

[staceyboy]

See you Sunday chaps

[RichUK]

staceyboy said:

See you Sunday chaps

So you got a pass out, fantastic!

[drakart]

This is going to be great! I can't wait to see Ben turning in nice and early at every corner and seeing how the car reacts through the corkscrew. If it's wet, I'm going to struggle not to go sideways everywhere.

[JeremyH5]

Looking forward to meeting you guys. And watching where you all turn in. And taking your photos with the Monkey. @Cunningminkey.
'#monkeymassive (he says)

Edited by JeremyH5 on Wednesday 5th November 22:12

[benjj]

Well gents, it was quite a weekend.

Frankly the racing was the least difficult part of it. So much pride in my friends putting together an event like this. The remembrance service in the pitlane in the middle of the race was a moment I'll never, ever forget. I had my great grandfather's DCM and other medals with me from WW1, quite emotional holding them 100 years since he and many others made the ultimate sacrifice.



On to the racing...

The Anglesey coastal circuit is an absolute belter. It is pretty easy to memorise but difficult (for me at least) to string together lap after lap of consistency.

I got there though and was very happy with my times. I managed to crack into the 1.25s and was pretty comfortable pedalling round in the 127/8s for 40 minutes at a time.

I was pretty cack in the wet qualifying though, need to work on wet weather racing.

Thanks for all the tips. After thinking through what I'd been told (and read here) I really got the hang of late brakes and late apexes. Stringing together The Banking, flat in 4th through Church and arriving at Rocket at c.125mph was by far my favourite section of the track.



Hope we can get some more PHers along to RoR 2015, saw quite a few stickers and tshirts about but was a bit busy to stop and say hello.

[Dollyman1850]

benjj said:

Well gents, it was quite a weekend.

Frankly the racing was the least difficult part of it. So much pride in my friends putting together an event like this. The remembrance service in the pitlane in the middle of the race was a moment I'll never, ever forget. I had my great grandfather's DCM and other medals with me from WW1, quite emotional holding them 100 years since he and many others made the ultimate sacrifice.



On to the racing...

The Anglesey coastal circuit is an absolute belter. It is pretty easy to memorise but difficult (for me at least) to string together lap after lap of consistency.

I got there though and was very happy with my times. I managed to crack into the 1.25s and was pretty comfortable pedalling round in the 127/8s for 40 minutes at a time.

I was pretty cack in the wet qualifying though, need to work on wet weather racing.

Thanks for all the tips. After thinking through what I'd been told (and read here) I really got the hang of late brakes and late apexes. Stringing together The Banking, flat in 4th through Church and arriving at Rocket at c.125mph was by far my favourite section of the track.



Hope we can get some more PHers along to RoR 2015, saw quite a few stickers and tshirts about but was a bit busy to stop and say hello.

Glad to see you had a good time. Everyone always falls in love with Anglesey when they go..Its a gem of a circuit.
N.

[Greensleeves]

benjj said:

Well chaps, crunch time this weekend

I've been religiously following Greensleeves' tip above and it has been a bit of a revelation - thanks

Pleased I could help. Now if anyone knows how to do it the other way, I could do with some tips. Been keeping it tidy all year and now need to learn to sling it in and steer with the loud pedal on the RAC in a couple of weeks.

I know it's not a bad position to be in and I'm confident the Escort will sort of drive itself a bit. Had a bit of practice at Herrington last week at the press day.

RAC Press Day Video

[benjj]

Drop me a message through here. Think you're relatively close. We can take out the Escort and Porsche for some rally cornering one time.