Recovery Buffoons
Discussion
37chevy said:
to be fair, your complaining about recovery people making mistakes....having just crashed and made one yourself...it doesn't condone an action which creates more damage....however if you hadn't made the mistake and put it there in the first place......
That's a MASSIVE assumption! What if someone outbraked themselves ploughing into you from behind, leaving you in the gravel. Is that your fault?Dan
djroadboy said:
37chevy said:
to be fair, your complaining about recovery people making mistakes....having just crashed and made one yourself...it doesn't condone an action which creates more damage....however if you hadn't made the mistake and put it there in the first place......
That's a MASSIVE assumption! What if someone outbraked themselves ploughing into you from behind, leaving you in the gravel. Is that your fault?Dan
In answer to bqf, no they're not all due to incompetence. Some are due to people making mistakes, some to mechanical failure. Some drivers and mechanics may be less than competent contributing to these mistakes/failures (most spectators can spot these drivers- they're not always the ones being rescued unfortunately). Some driver mistakes will be the result of race pressure.
A question for bqf: do you think that all damage done by marshals/recovery buffoons is due to incompetence? Do you think that some of it could be mistakes? Sometimes caused by the pressure of circuit directors wanting the circuit to go live again? Or a fear of how much the drivers haven't slowed down under yellow flags? Do you think that drivers could do more to help (where they can- being sent off to the medics does limit their ability to do so) to relieve the pressure of sometimes one or two people trying to recover a car?
Could further training help prevent such situations occurring? Yes of course it could, it won't however eliminate the entirely. Don't believe me? Look on youtube for videos of professional tow truck drivers getting it wrong when lifting a car or a tele handler dropping something. These are the same people rescuing your car. Same as every job you get some good, some bad some middle: most of the good ones survive and stay in the job, everyone has their off days
mcdjl said:
I agree it is, which is why I originally was careful to say that someone and not necessarily the driver, had been a buffoon.
In answer to bqf, no they're not all due to incompetence. Some are due to people making mistakes, some to mechanical failure. Some drivers and mechanics may be less than competent contributing to these mistakes/failures (most spectators can spot these drivers- they're not always the ones being rescued unfortunately). Some driver mistakes will be the result of race pressure.
A question for bqf: do you think that all damage done by marshals/recovery buffoons is due to incompetence? Do you think that some of it could be mistakes? Sometimes caused by the pressure of circuit directors wanting the circuit to go live again? Or a fear of how much the drivers haven't slowed down under yellow flags? Do you think that drivers could do more to help (where they can- being sent off to the medics does limit their ability to do so) to relieve the pressure of sometimes one or two people trying to recover a car?
Could further training help prevent such situations occurring? Yes of course it could, it won't however eliminate the entirely. Don't believe me? Look on youtube for videos of professional tow truck drivers getting it wrong when lifting a car or a tele handler dropping something. These are the same people rescuing your car. Same as every job you get some good, some bad some middle: most of the good ones survive and stay in the job, everyone has their off days
"Everyone has their off days". In answer to bqf, no they're not all due to incompetence. Some are due to people making mistakes, some to mechanical failure. Some drivers and mechanics may be less than competent contributing to these mistakes/failures (most spectators can spot these drivers- they're not always the ones being rescued unfortunately). Some driver mistakes will be the result of race pressure.
A question for bqf: do you think that all damage done by marshals/recovery buffoons is due to incompetence? Do you think that some of it could be mistakes? Sometimes caused by the pressure of circuit directors wanting the circuit to go live again? Or a fear of how much the drivers haven't slowed down under yellow flags? Do you think that drivers could do more to help (where they can- being sent off to the medics does limit their ability to do so) to relieve the pressure of sometimes one or two people trying to recover a car?
Could further training help prevent such situations occurring? Yes of course it could, it won't however eliminate the entirely. Don't believe me? Look on youtube for videos of professional tow truck drivers getting it wrong when lifting a car or a tele handler dropping something. These are the same people rescuing your car. Same as every job you get some good, some bad some middle: most of the good ones survive and stay in the job, everyone has their off days
I'll remember that when someone has an operation that goes wrong. Or when someone crashes on the road. Just tell plod, 'No worries, I'm having an off day'. Everyone will pat you on the back and say, 'Yeah, sorry, forget it mate, we all have them."
mcdjl said:
I agree it is, which is why I originally was careful to say that someone and not necessarily the driver, had been a buffoon.
In answer to bqf, no they're not all due to incompetence. Some are due to people making mistakes, some to mechanical failure. Some drivers and mechanics may be less than competent contributing to these mistakes/failures (most spectators can spot these drivers- they're not always the ones being rescued unfortunately). Some driver mistakes will be the result of race pressure.
A question for bqf: do you think that all damage done by marshals/recovery buffoons is due to incompetence? Do you think that some of it could be mistakes? Sometimes caused by the pressure of circuit directors wanting the circuit to go live again? Or a fear of how much the drivers haven't slowed down under yellow flags? Do you think that drivers could do more to help (where they can- being sent off to the medics does limit their ability to do so) to relieve the pressure of sometimes one or two people trying to recover a car?
Could further training help prevent such situations occurring? Yes of course it could, it won't however eliminate the entirely. Don't believe me? Look on youtube for videos of professional tow truck drivers getting it wrong when lifting a car or a tele handler dropping something. These are the same people rescuing your car. Same as every job you get some good, some bad some middle: most of the good ones survive and stay in the job, everyone has their off days
Another non-racer butting in. Go away.In answer to bqf, no they're not all due to incompetence. Some are due to people making mistakes, some to mechanical failure. Some drivers and mechanics may be less than competent contributing to these mistakes/failures (most spectators can spot these drivers- they're not always the ones being rescued unfortunately). Some driver mistakes will be the result of race pressure.
A question for bqf: do you think that all damage done by marshals/recovery buffoons is due to incompetence? Do you think that some of it could be mistakes? Sometimes caused by the pressure of circuit directors wanting the circuit to go live again? Or a fear of how much the drivers haven't slowed down under yellow flags? Do you think that drivers could do more to help (where they can- being sent off to the medics does limit their ability to do so) to relieve the pressure of sometimes one or two people trying to recover a car?
Could further training help prevent such situations occurring? Yes of course it could, it won't however eliminate the entirely. Don't believe me? Look on youtube for videos of professional tow truck drivers getting it wrong when lifting a car or a tele handler dropping something. These are the same people rescuing your car. Same as every job you get some good, some bad some middle: most of the good ones survive and stay in the job, everyone has their off days
andygo said:
"Everyone has their off days".
I'll remember that when someone has an operation that goes wrong. Or when someone crashes on the road. Just tell plod, 'No worries, I'm having an off day'. Everyone will pat you on the back and say, 'Yeah, sorry, forget it mate, we all have them."
Do you really want the same level of oversight, training, risk management and redundancy built into surgery built in to track side recovery? Do you want the same levels of investigation (actually in some cases they actually do exist already) track side as on normal roads, and the associated traffic restrictions? I'll remember that when someone has an operation that goes wrong. Or when someone crashes on the road. Just tell plod, 'No worries, I'm having an off day'. Everyone will pat you on the back and say, 'Yeah, sorry, forget it mate, we all have them."
Yes accidents can be reduced. To eliminate them totally is impossible. To reduce them significantly will require changes to track and/or race environments and costs.
Do you want a payout for your costs? Then you'll need to know who to blame, more investigation. What happens now is a compromise, it could work better without a doubt. To do so would require changes from drivers as well as more training for track side workers.
mcdjl said:
Do you want a payout for your costs? Then you'll need to know who to blame, more investigation. What happens now is a compromise, it could work better without a doubt. To do so would require changes from drivers as well as more training for track side workers.
Poppycock.The circuit's PL & EL insurance policies would provide cover - with the Recovery teams covered as either volunteers or sub contractors of the circuit (sorry don't fully know the remuneration arrangements between the two parties). Therefore any "blame", like the phrase "responsibility" more personally, lies with the Recovery Team - but they are protected ultimately by insurance.
As someone who arranges insurances across Europe for race cars (and covered the OP car at Snetterton), IMO the issue is down to a couple of things. Time pressures from the CofC (mentioned elsewhere), particularly for televised events, causing under pressure errors/mistakes - but mainly down to the Recovery teams having no concept of cost of modern day cars, and the effort its taken to get the cars to circuit. The way in which I've seen some £300k GT3 cars hauled about this year is shocking (its common across Europe, not just a UK issue).
Yes drivers should take every measure not to have an incident, but 50% are unavoidable and down to someone else - the training issue lays firmly at the door of the Recovery teams I'm afraid. As a racer myself, I appreciate enormously their giving of time etc, but that's no excuse for shoddy work.
Getting back to the OP initial post, dropping a tow bar on the roof of a car causing a re-shell is disgraceful and has nothing to do with driving training.
AndyAlfa18 said:
Poppycock.
The circuit's PL & EL insurance policies would provide cover - with the Recovery teams covered as either volunteers or sub contractors of the circuit (sorry don't fully know the remuneration arrangements between the two parties). Therefore any "blame", like the phrase "responsibility" more personally, lies with the Recovery Team - but they are protected ultimately by insurance.
As someone who arranges insurances across Europe for race cars (and covered the OP car at Snetterton), IMO the issue is down to a couple of things. Time pressures from the CofC (mentioned elsewhere), particularly for televised events, causing under pressure errors/mistakes - but mainly down to the Recovery teams having no concept of cost of modern day cars, and the effort its taken to get the cars to circuit. The way in which I've seen some £300k GT3 cars hauled about this year is shocking (its common across Europe, not just a UK issue).
Yes drivers should take every measure not to have an incident, but 50% are unavoidable and down to someone else - the training issue lays firmly at the door of the Recovery teams I'm afraid. As a racer myself, I appreciate enormously their giving of time etc, but that's no excuse for shoddy work.
Getting back to the OP initial post, dropping a tow bar on the roof of a car causing a re-shell is disgraceful and has nothing to do with driving training.
I completely agree Andy (as you'd expect) - I genuinely think recovery teams should be taken through a list of do's and don'ts before each season (or maybe meeting?). The circuit's PL & EL insurance policies would provide cover - with the Recovery teams covered as either volunteers or sub contractors of the circuit (sorry don't fully know the remuneration arrangements between the two parties). Therefore any "blame", like the phrase "responsibility" more personally, lies with the Recovery Team - but they are protected ultimately by insurance.
As someone who arranges insurances across Europe for race cars (and covered the OP car at Snetterton), IMO the issue is down to a couple of things. Time pressures from the CofC (mentioned elsewhere), particularly for televised events, causing under pressure errors/mistakes - but mainly down to the Recovery teams having no concept of cost of modern day cars, and the effort its taken to get the cars to circuit. The way in which I've seen some £300k GT3 cars hauled about this year is shocking (its common across Europe, not just a UK issue).
Yes drivers should take every measure not to have an incident, but 50% are unavoidable and down to someone else - the training issue lays firmly at the door of the Recovery teams I'm afraid. As a racer myself, I appreciate enormously their giving of time etc, but that's no excuse for shoddy work.
Getting back to the OP initial post, dropping a tow bar on the roof of a car causing a re-shell is disgraceful and has nothing to do with driving training.
bqf said:
I completely agree Andy (as you'd expect) - I genuinely think recovery teams should be taken through a list of do's and don'ts before each season (or maybe meeting?).
There are recovery and marshal training days. Try contacting your local circuits to see if they'd like you to turn up to one with a car to show the guys how you'd like them pushed/pulled. That'd probably go a lot further than them being told how to before playing with an old banger they then set fire to.Edited by mcdjl on Friday 14th November 13:19
AndyAlfa18 said:
The circuit's PL & EL insurance policies would provide cover - with the Recovery teams covered as either volunteers or sub contractors of the circuit (sorry don't fully know the remuneration arrangements between the two parties). Therefore any "blame", like the phrase "responsibility" more personally, lies with the Recovery Team - but they are protected ultimately by insurance.
As someone who arranges insurances across Europe for race cars (and covered the OP car at Snetterton), IMO the issue is down to a couple of things. Time pressures from the CofC (mentioned elsewhere), particularly for televised events, causing under pressure errors/mistakes - but mainly down to the Recovery teams having no concept of cost of modern day cars, and the effort its taken to get the cars to circuit. The way in which I've seen some £300k GT3 cars hauled about this year is shocking (its common across Europe, not just a UK issue).
Getting back to the OP initial post, dropping a tow bar on the roof of a car causing a re-shell is disgraceful and has nothing to do with driving training.
Did (could?) any of the damages mentioned in this story result in an insurance payout? As someone who arranges insurances across Europe for race cars (and covered the OP car at Snetterton), IMO the issue is down to a couple of things. Time pressures from the CofC (mentioned elsewhere), particularly for televised events, causing under pressure errors/mistakes - but mainly down to the Recovery teams having no concept of cost of modern day cars, and the effort its taken to get the cars to circuit. The way in which I've seen some £300k GT3 cars hauled about this year is shocking (its common across Europe, not just a UK issue).
Getting back to the OP initial post, dropping a tow bar on the roof of a car causing a re-shell is disgraceful and has nothing to do with driving training.
Which my Insurers swallowed due to the cost / time pursuing such a small amount. But if it had been a car of considerable more value, then it would have been a painful lesson for the Recovery Team, Snetterton/MSV, as my Insurers would have had no choice but to recover costs from 3rd Party.
But the point is the Recovery teams should treat every vehicle the same, as if it were theirs, and worth more than they could afford to lose.
But the point is the Recovery teams should treat every vehicle the same, as if it were theirs, and worth more than they could afford to lose.
mcdjl said:
Do you really want the same level of oversight, training, risk management and redundancy built into surgery built in to track side recovery? Do you want the same levels of investigation (actually in some cases they actually do exist already) track side as on normal roads, and the associated traffic restrictions?
Yes accidents can be reduced. To eliminate them totally is impossible. To reduce them significantly will require changes to track and/or race environments and costs.
Do you want a payout for your costs? Then you'll need to know who to blame, more investigation. What happens now is a compromise, it could work better without a doubt. To do so would require changes from drivers as well as more training for track side workers.
I was understandably fairly annoyed at the result of the incident, but didn't take it any further at the time. But in hindsight, it's not training that would have prevented the damage, but a teeny weeny bit of commonsense. Yes accidents can be reduced. To eliminate them totally is impossible. To reduce them significantly will require changes to track and/or race environments and costs.
Do you want a payout for your costs? Then you'll need to know who to blame, more investigation. What happens now is a compromise, it could work better without a doubt. To do so would require changes from drivers as well as more training for track side workers.
AndyAlfa18 said:
Which my Insurers swallowed due to the cost / time pursuing such a small amount. But if it had been a car of considerable more value, then it would have been a painful lesson for the Recovery Team, Snetterton/MSV, as my Insurers would have had no choice but to recover costs from 3rd Party.
But the point is the Recovery teams should treat every vehicle the same, as if it were theirs, and worth more than they could afford to lose.
Andy - your last comment contained the part that hits the nail on the head. "As if it were theirs".But the point is the Recovery teams should treat every vehicle the same, as if it were theirs, and worth more than they could afford to lose.
I call it "Forklift driver syndrome" - these are people who load lorries, and use the side of the lorry as their brakes. In a previous life when I ran a truck I had an argument with a forklift driver over it, he didn't care, his supervisor didn't care, but his MD did! So you'd use a £50,000 trailer as an alternative to the brake pedal would you?
Back to racing, I've had a couple of recoveries this year with the Belmont, and supervised one of them. All I can say is the guys at Donington were very good, and ever so worried about damaging my unique beasty when they loaded it on the flatbet. Especially when the hydraulics on the flatbed let go too!
I often wonder whether some of these issues could have been avoided had they not been so under pressure to get it cleared up so quickly.
More haste, less speed!
Just putting my flak jacket and tin helmet on for this final shot...
Where there's a blame - there's a claim!
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