What was he thinking?

[Dan Friel]

Mark Benson said:

Dan Friel said:

Mark Benson said:

Dan Friel said:

Adam205 said:

radical78 said:

he porche driver needs to use his bloody MIRRORS before moving across . the clio driver needs to learn when to back out of a potentially dangerouse situation

Thats how I see it.

If that's the way people see it, then it's the end of amateur motorsport. You are always in potentially dangerous position when racing, however, you don't expect another racer to make sure that the position actually becomes severely dangerous... How would anyone ever get alongside and overtake fairly?

It's clear that the Porsche driver was at 100% at fault, and this is how the MSA saw it. Case closed. The only real debate is whether the punishment is adequate.

What rot. End of amateur motorsport indeed!

Believe it or not, driver skill and often superior machinery is required to overtake cleanly, and a certain amount of circumspection.
Nudging one's way into position does not require skill, doing so to a competitor who's clearly hell-bent on stopping you, fair means or foul does not show circumspection. What's sad is that someone who claims to be a marshal can't judge the difference, I hope you're never asked to observe when I'm racing.

Let's be clear, the Porsche driver was responsible for putting the Clio into the pit wall, what he did was appalling and should not be tolerated.
However, the Clio driver, in my opinion and several others was not the paragon of virtue they claim to have been, he took to the grass and forced the Porsche's rear wide at Barn, something (supposedly) not condoned in club racing, although the responses of many lead me to believe the BTCC is becoming the yardstick for driver conduct, sadly.

You seem to be mixing incidents. There was contact at Barn (now seen the longer video), I don't know whether this was reported or reviewed by the MSA at the meeting. Does anyone? Both cars stayed on the track, and both drivers know where each other was as they continued along the pit straight. The Porsche driver decided to drive the Clio off the track, and it's wholly unacceptable.

The Porsche driver could have ceded the position, and protested the contact at Barn after the race. I no longer marshal at BTCC meetings, and haven't for 10 years since James Thompson nearly took my head off. The mentality of "rubbing is racing" is so wrong and will end in something appalling. You can't have drivers weaving around the race track, the rules are clear.

You can't separate the two incidents - same cars only seconds apart, do you not think the first incident had a bearing on the second? Did the (clearly irresponsible) Porsche driver think "Oops, got me there, I'll just back off and give you that one" and was the (clearly frustrated) Clio driver not so determined to capitalise on his nudge that he kept his foot in where it was probably the more sensible thing to back out and live to fight another lap, especially given the behaviour of the Porsche driver up to the incident?

As I said, neither driver comes out of that incident looking great and I don't believe you can separate the incidents into two discrete events, the first precipitated the second to some extent.

Other than that, I think we're agreeing - what I'm not saying is that the Clio driver was the architect of his own downfall, the Porsche clearly tried to close the door on a car that was alongside and that's not on.

I think we probably agree, perhaps my original wording didn’t quite explain my position!

Considering both together, the Clio driver is in the wrong at Barn but at least he backs out and it doesn’t end in some BTCC "Plato" style spin around incident. Perhaps more luck than judgement, and I would hope that he would put his hands up that a mistake was made. However, I think it doesn’t help the Porsche driver’s case, in fact, it might make it even worse because, a) he can’t argue that he didn’t know that the Clio was there, and b) it reveals a motive for a retaliation move.. which it probably was. The book should be thrown at him.

Many series / organisers (BMW Production for example) now have a zero contact policy and who can argue with that.. and that’s where I tend to focus my marshalling.

[staceyboy]

Have you studied the video properly? Watch again. Listen to the audio. The Clio driver clearly has two goes at getting on the power. The Porsche is parked on the exit. He's done that on purpose. I spoke to a few other experienced racers at the weekend at the Angelsey 8h race. They were in agreement that if you're prepared to block the exit of a corner to retain a position, you have to expect some contact. I know it's a non contact sport, but if you make that decision to block an exit...

I've done it. Having just passed a car that is faster in a straight line round the outside of Coram, I had to block the exit then make a dash to stand a chance of retaining the position and getting away. Watch this from 11m for the following minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6h1ehLOZpA I've blocked the exit and I'm not even at the apex yet. I kinda expected a nudge.

[simes43]

staceyboy said:

Have you studied the video properly? Watch again. Listen to the audio. The Clio driver clearly has two goes at getting on the power. The Porsche is parked on the exit. He's done that on purpose. I spoke to a few other experienced racers at the weekend at the Angelsey 8h race. They were in agreement that if you're prepared to block the exit of a corner to retain a position, you have to expect some contact. I know it's a non contact sport, but if you make that decision to block an exit...

I've done it. Having just passed a car that is faster in a straight line round the outside of Coram, I had to block the exit then make a dash to stand a chance of retaining the position and getting away. Watch this from 11m for the following minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6h1ehLOZpA I've blocked the exit and I'm not even at the apex yet. I kinda expected a nudge.

I would doubt that anyone who has raced at Cadwell in
the wet would agree with your conclusion.

A wet Barn in a rear wheel drive car is very tricky and
not to be rushed. Saying that the Porsche blocked the exit
is just plain nonsense.

Another negative towards the Clio driver, as understanding
and compensating for the dynamics of the car in front is
part of the art.

[BertBert]

the problem is that it isn't a two corner incident. if you look earlier in the video the porsche is weaving on the main straight to defend.

thats what he does, nothing to do with any nurf from the clio.

stupid and very dangerous.

bert

[steeviegeebies]

simes43 said:

I would doubt that anyone who has raced at Cadwell in
the wet would agree with your conclusion.

A wet Barn in a rear wheel drive car is very tricky and
not to be rushed. Saying that the Porsche blocked the exit
is just plain nonsense.

Another negative towards the Clio driver, as understanding
and compensating for the dynamics of the car in front is
part of the art.

Nonesense. I was in a 968 in that race as well. It wasn't actually wet - after a couple of laps the track had dried. Every lap after the first two I could take a normal race line at Barn. The 968 in the vid was uber defensive there, clearly blocking the apex, keeping his speed low so he wouldn't run out at the exit, focusing on covering the part of the track occupied by the Clio before realising he was passing and pushing him off the track. As it happens, I also had a long battle a Clio (the white one that won class C). Difference is we both had big smiles on our faces in park ferme afterwards and shook hands for such a brilliant race.

[simes43]

The problem is that both drivers are guilty of dangerous and poor driving standards.

However bad one driver might be, there is no justification in racing to retaliate or
gain advantage through deliberate contact.

It worries me that one of the basic principles of racing has been lost.

[staceyboy]

simes43 said:

I would doubt that anyone who has raced at Cadwell in
the wet would agree with your conclusion.

A wet Barn in a rear wheel drive car is very tricky and
not to be rushed. Saying that the Porsche blocked the exit
is just plain nonsense.

Another negative towards the Clio driver, as understanding
and compensating for the dynamics of the car in front is
part of the art.

Like Steviegeebies says, that is not right. I had a brilliant race with Paul Roddison round Cadwell earlier this year. My car is FWD and his is RWD. I couldn't get near him round Barn, but then he wasn't trying to block as he knew he had an advantage there. That contact before the main crash is very easy to understand. The Clio comes from wide to sweep through on the inside after the 968 takes a tight line. You can hear the clio driver lift after initially getting on the throttle, but the 968 is still 'parked'. They touch as the 968 isn't taking a normal line and is intentionally blocking the corner. The Clio takes the grass as the 968 tightens his line even further from what is already a very tight line.

[simes43]

steeviegeebies said:

simes43 said:

I would doubt that anyone who has raced at Cadwell in
the wet would agree with your conclusion.

A wet Barn in a rear wheel drive car is very tricky and
not to be rushed. Saying that the Porsche blocked the exit
is just plain nonsense.

Another negative towards the Clio driver, as understanding
and compensating for the dynamics of the car in front is
part of the art.

Nonesense. I was in a 968 in that race as well. It wasn't actually wet - after a couple of laps the track had dried. Every lap after the first two I could take a normal race line at Barn. The 968 in the vid was uber defensive there, clearly blocking the apex, keeping his speed low so he wouldn't run out at the exit, focusing on covering the part of the track occupied by the Clio before realising he was passing and pushing him off the track. As it happens, I also had a long battle a Clio (the white one that won class C). Difference is we both had big smiles on our faces in park ferme afterwards and shook hands for such a brilliant race.

And people wonder why driving standards are falling.

You do realise that hitting the car in front intentionally, to gain advantage, is wrong dont you?

[Mark Benson]

staceyboy said:

That contact before the main crash is very easy to understand. The Clio comes from wide to sweep through on the inside after the 968 takes a tight line. You can hear the clio driver lift after initially getting on the throttle, but the 968 is still 'parked'. They touch as the 968 isn't taking a normal line and is intentionally blocking the corner. The Clio takes the grass as the 968 tightens his line even further from what is already a very tight line.

Just because someone is defending (or if you want to call it blocking, feel free) that doesn't give the following driver the right to get on the throttle and force his way past as the Clio does in this clip at 1.30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0uzMaSsPtw

the gap was never really there, and any sensible driver, having followed the loon in the Porsche for a lap or two would have backed out long before, instead the Clio kept his foot in and tried to force his way past, the lift if there was one was momentary before the decision to plant the throttle and force his way through.

It concerns me that there are people who don't see an issue with what the Clio did.

[steeviegeebies]

simes43 said:

And people wonder why driving standards are falling.

You do realise that hitting the car in front intentionally, to gain advantage, is wrong dont you?

You do realise that you're assuming the Clio hit the 968 intentionally don't you?

[Mark Benson]

steeviegeebies said:

simes43 said:

And people wonder why driving standards are falling.

You do realise that hitting the car in front intentionally, to gain advantage, is wrong dont you?

You do realise that you're assuming the Clio hit the 968 intentionally don't you?

And you're assuming he didn't. The only person that knows for sure is the driver, and I'm sure he'd say it was unintentional. Over that, we're all making judgements based on experience (or lack of).

Either way, he kept his foot in once they'd made contact, capitalising on his mistake/frustration.

[simes43]

steeviegeebies said:

simes43 said:

And people wonder why driving standards are falling.

You do realise that hitting the car in front intentionally, to gain advantage, is wrong dont you?

You do realise that you're assuming the Clio hit the 968 intentionally don't you?

Please read Mark's post above. I am sure he will help you understand the finer details if asked.

[Oilchange]

I think it's all bks.
They're dicing amongst one another and then the Porsche rams the Clio off. It's as simple as that.

[steeviegeebies]

simes43 said:

Please read Mark's post above. I am sure he will help you understand the finer details if asked.

I've actually made no assumptions one way or the other, just calling it as I see it. I read Mark's post, and largely disagree because the Clio kept his foot in to overtake on the undercut not to punt off the 968. The fact we disagree is not a surprise because the cause of the punt is inconclusive, and that's why MSA calls these things racing incidents. What wasn't a racing incident - we all agree - was the 968's move into the Clio when he was alongside.

[RobM77]

mattmk391 said:

staceyboy said:

I agree. Also, I like what some Karting series do where you have to have a camera on board. And make folk sign to say it must be available for officials to view.

I don't know about other clubs but the BRSCC made in-car cameras mandatory this season for us. You get a yellow card if you can't produce the footage when asked then a red card and championship points taken away if it happens a second time.

Any contact reported by observers has been investigated post race, including calling in the driver of any following car for an outside perspective. It's worked well, time penalties where someone has gained an advantage through contact etc, although IMO some big decisions have been avoided and put down as 'racing incidents' in the interests of paddock harmony.

That should be a model for all championships, especially now as a Go Pro costs a similar amount to a transponder. Many championships already mandate safety equipment beyond the minimum MSA requirements, including the last two that I've raced in.

I've been driven into in just the same manner as the Clio and the MX5 in the video earlier (which was utterly shocking by the way - does anyone know what happened to the offending driver?), once on a green flag lap before qualifying (yes, really!) and once on a straight just like the MX5 video, and both incidents were dealt with internally by the championship very effectively. This is certainly something that would attract me to a championship in the future.

Both the Clio and the MX5 incidents could have quite easily been fatal - it's very important we learn from incidents like this and if possible make the sport safer.

[Evo]

It would seem the Clio driver nudged the Porsche however racing at speed that close a slight lift from the Porsche would have backed the Clio into him. The overall standard of the Porsche driver throughout the video is appalling, weaving everywhere to keep people behind him.

Very poor and he should get a much longer ban, retaliation or not there is no excuse for needlessly endangering someone else's life.

[gaz1234]

Porsche driver...

[Evo]

gaz1234 said:

Porsche driver...

No, just a driver with no morals

[Furyblade_Lee]

stevieturbo said:

Furyblade_Lee said:

Sorry, but I thought they were involved in a race? Yes the Clio driver "could" have backed out but why should he? They are racing. It's not a f****** trackday.

Is it not obvious from the video why ?

Can you win...or indeed finish a race buried in a barrier ?

Again, there is blame on both parties, perhaps some more than others

But with self preservation in mind, the Clio driver obviously claiming the Porsche was driving dangerously...so what would you do ?

Maintain a close enough distance he can hit and crash into you ? Or hold back a little until it is 100% safe to pass ?




No I would expect the dick to stay on his half of the track and me on mine, and lets sort it out in the baking zone if not before. I would not expect him to push me into the barrier. Am I missing something there mate?

[Simon T]

Let him without guilt cast the first stone.... not sure how many people commenting here actually race but for those who do can you hand on heart say you have never made an error that put another car at risk? I know I can't.

The nudge in the prior corner could have had just as serious consequences but driver managed to catch it. So the next corner said driver feels the same thing happening again (who really can tell who moved over on who?) what does he do? lift off? That probably results in an accident, swerve, same result. Once the ongoing contact is made there is really only one option left to him, lean into it. most likely it all happened to quick to avoid at that point.

Had the car run off onto the grass and rejoind I doubt you'd all be calling for licences to be torn up or lynching people. Probably comments about rubbin is racin would be posted.

Bottom line is If you are willing to trade paint you've got to be prepared to accept the consequences.

simon