What was he thinking?
Discussion
fiveoclockhero1 said:
I've probably got to race against him at Brands on 22/23 Nov, great!!
Is it worth saying something in the driver briefing beforehand ?I've had some great battles in a couple of races but it has always been respectful, blocking lines yes, but rarely any contact and certainly no weaving.
The kind of driving by that Porsche driver scares me a little, I mean, I worry a little about damaging my own car let alone someone else's, he's driving like he's not bothered about taking someone's life.
Makes me wonder whether it's even worth getting out on track with fools like this. We know the risks but the racers I'm in with would never dream of pulling a stunt like that.
I mean, who would go and race (with all the enormous prep time and money) in an enjoyable series with good pals knowing there is one idiot who is prepared put your life on the line? When the prize is a small, insignificant plastic trophy?
I think I would withdraw if I knew these pricks were on the grid. If I knew in time I wouldn't enter and mention to the race organiser why. Vote with my feet.
I think the lack of entrants would spark a reaction with the club and with any luck get the idiots banned.
The Richard Hughes and Bob Higgins of this world can race together and kill each other for all I care...
I mean, who would go and race (with all the enormous prep time and money) in an enjoyable series with good pals knowing there is one idiot who is prepared put your life on the line? When the prize is a small, insignificant plastic trophy?
I think I would withdraw if I knew these pricks were on the grid. If I knew in time I wouldn't enter and mention to the race organiser why. Vote with my feet.
I think the lack of entrants would spark a reaction with the club and with any luck get the idiots banned.
The Richard Hughes and Bob Higgins of this world can race together and kill each other for all I care...
It does look like it started with a basic error from the Porsche exiting Barn. He kept a tight line instead of using all the track, lost momentum and must have known he was about to lose the place. If he'd have exited properly he would have keep the Clio behind. Even if the Clio had got alongside, the Porsche would have the advantage going into Coppice and held the position.
Being constructive, maybe the MSA could impose something more comprehensive than 6 points, e.g.:
- minimum fine £2000
- 6 points on race license
- reverted to novice cross (6 signatures needed again)
- 60% of the fine payable to the other driver to assist repairs / physiotherapy costs
- 20% towards compulsory ARDS driver training & track etiquette course
- other 20% to cover MSA admin costs
"discuss"
Being constructive, maybe the MSA could impose something more comprehensive than 6 points, e.g.:
- minimum fine £2000
- 6 points on race license
- reverted to novice cross (6 signatures needed again)
- 60% of the fine payable to the other driver to assist repairs / physiotherapy costs
- 20% towards compulsory ARDS driver training & track etiquette course
- other 20% to cover MSA admin costs
"discuss"
bqf said:
Mark Benson said:
As a club racer of 15 years standing, what saddens me (apart from the shocking driving of the Porsche which is a given) is that the Clio driver initiated his pass by taking to the grass and nudging a RWD car mid-corner but those actions merit no comment at all apart from someone describing his actions as a 'love tap'.
As the owner of a car presented with a hefty bill and a sore neck (even with a HANS) after just such an attempt as passing ended in a big off, I can only conclude that the Plato 'Push to Pass' method of passing is becoming the norm in the Trackday Trophy.
What the Porsche driver did was unforgivable, but had I been an official viewing the footage I'd have also sanctioned the Clio driver for what could have resulted in a loss of control for the driver of the Porsche. The only reason the Clio was alongside the Porsche was because he nudged it out of the way at Barn, initially it was the Clio driver's frustration and subsequent actions that fuelled the idiot in the Porsche to retaliate.
None of that exonerates the Porsche driver, but neither party comes out of that clip looking angelic.
I have to agree. The Clio driver was trying to pass aggressively too - the 968 clearly lurches to the right but in all honesty if I were driving the Clio, I'd have backed off a bit and let him go. There are safer places to try and pass at Cadwell. Shocking to watch but it's not totally clear cut as some would make out.....As the owner of a car presented with a hefty bill and a sore neck (even with a HANS) after just such an attempt as passing ended in a big off, I can only conclude that the Plato 'Push to Pass' method of passing is becoming the norm in the Trackday Trophy.
What the Porsche driver did was unforgivable, but had I been an official viewing the footage I'd have also sanctioned the Clio driver for what could have resulted in a loss of control for the driver of the Porsche. The only reason the Clio was alongside the Porsche was because he nudged it out of the way at Barn, initially it was the Clio driver's frustration and subsequent actions that fuelled the idiot in the Porsche to retaliate.
None of that exonerates the Porsche driver, but neither party comes out of that clip looking angelic.
The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
simes43 said:
Totally agree. The Clio driver should have lifted because contact was avoidable.
The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
Clerk didn't see it that way, and I'm pretty sure if that earlier nudge had caused a crash it'd have been viewed as a racing incident (similar to one in which I was taken out at Brands earlier this year). Clerk punished the Porsche driver who, at the end of the day, turned into the Clio as it was passing on a fast part of the circuit pushing him off the circuit and into the pitwall. Whatever happened just before didn't cause that particular incident. The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
steeviegeebies said:
simes43 said:
Totally agree. The Clio driver should have lifted because contact was avoidable.
The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
Clerk didn't see it that way, and I'm pretty sure if that earlier nudge had caused a crash it'd have been viewed as a racing incident (similar to one in which I was taken out at Brands earlier this year). Clerk punished the Porsche driver who, at the end of the day, turned into the Clio as it was passing on a fast part of the circuit pushing him off the circuit and into the pitwall. Whatever happened just before didn't cause that particular incident. The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
All on a straight bit of road.
steeviegeebies said:
simes43 said:
Totally agree. The Clio driver should have lifted because contact was avoidable.
The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
Clerk didn't see it that way, and I'm pretty sure if that earlier nudge had caused a crash it'd have been viewed as a racing incident (similar to one in which I was taken out at Brands earlier this year). Clerk punished the Porsche driver who, at the end of the day, turned into the Clio as it was passing on a fast part of the circuit pushing him off the circuit and into the pitwall. Whatever happened just before didn't cause that particular incident. The Clio uses contact to gain advantage and does not lift once contact has been made. So I don't buy his "innocent victim" sob story one bit.
Embarrasingly poor and dangerous driving from both drivers.
If you touch the car in front by accident, you lift (so as not to gain advantage), raise an arm in apology and say sorry afterwards. That's what you do. Loading, nudging call it what you will is cheating, dangerous and has no place in racing, outside of the ovals.
The Porsche driver deserves banning, however, the Clio driver has published footage of a less serious but deliberate act of aggressive driving. The fact he put it on YouTube gives me the impression that he is either clueless or thinks nudging is OK.
I hope they both take up golf, because my bank manager has had enough of these idiots.
I don't see the Porsche brake testing the Clio on the way into Barn, I think he was just slowing the car as the track appears greasy and not all cars/drivers will turn in to Barn with just a lift, even in the dry.
On the other hand I don't see a tap from the Clio either. The Porsche turns in early and clips an early apex but then holds it tight while apparently getting on the power, you can see it oversteer while still close to the apex kerb and well before the Clio is close enough to have touched. The oversteer pushes the Porsche wide and allows the Clio to start to pull alongside; looks like a well taken opportunity to me.
The view from behind does show the Clio clipping the grass but track limits is another thread and it's no indication of dangerous driving in this case IMO, more just more a case of grabbing a chance to get by a car that had been blocking (apparently illegally) for a number of laps.
On the other hand I don't see a tap from the Clio either. The Porsche turns in early and clips an early apex but then holds it tight while apparently getting on the power, you can see it oversteer while still close to the apex kerb and well before the Clio is close enough to have touched. The oversteer pushes the Porsche wide and allows the Clio to start to pull alongside; looks like a well taken opportunity to me.
The view from behind does show the Clio clipping the grass but track limits is another thread and it's no indication of dangerous driving in this case IMO, more just more a case of grabbing a chance to get by a car that had been blocking (apparently illegally) for a number of laps.
It looks to me like the 968 has deliberately blocked the exit of the corner. The Clio comes from wide to get a run down the inside and has to take to the grass. Look how tight the 968 is on the exit. It's tight anyway but when you look at the footage from the car behind, he goes tighter still when he see the Clio coming. Normally you'd be running out wide to get the lock off. Not closing the door.
Steve H said:
I don't see the Porsche brake testing the Clio on the way into Barn, I think he was just slowing the car as the track appears greasy and not all cars/drivers will turn in to Barn with just a lift, even in the dry.
On the other hand I don't see a tap from the Clio either. The Porsche turns in early and clips an early apex but then holds it tight while apparently getting on the power, you can see it oversteer while still close to the apex kerb and well before the Clio is close enough to have touched. The oversteer pushes the Porsche wide and allows the Clio to start to pull alongside; looks like a well taken opportunity to me.
The view from behind does show the Clio clipping the grass but track limits is another thread and it's no indication of dangerous driving in this case IMO, more just more a case of grabbing a chance to get by a car that had been blocking (apparently illegally) for a number of laps.
Take another look. The nudge is the only reason the Clio is able to get alongside the Porsche.On the other hand I don't see a tap from the Clio either. The Porsche turns in early and clips an early apex but then holds it tight while apparently getting on the power, you can see it oversteer while still close to the apex kerb and well before the Clio is close enough to have touched. The oversteer pushes the Porsche wide and allows the Clio to start to pull alongside; looks like a well taken opportunity to me.
The view from behind does show the Clio clipping the grass but track limits is another thread and it's no indication of dangerous driving in this case IMO, more just more a case of grabbing a chance to get by a car that had been blocking (apparently illegally) for a number of laps.
What the Porsche driver did before and after is no defence.
If you listen, the Clio takes two attempts to get on the throttle as the 968 is literally parked in the middle of the corner.
IF, you decide to block an apex with your car, you've got to be prepared to take a nudge, no? If the Clio was intent on hitting the Porsche wouldn't have hesitated the first time, surely? I've really struggled round that corner against RWD cars as you have to be a lot more patient on the throttle. That car was driven round that corner not with the intent of getting out of it as fast as possible, but to block the exit.
IF, you decide to block an apex with your car, you've got to be prepared to take a nudge, no? If the Clio was intent on hitting the Porsche wouldn't have hesitated the first time, surely? I've really struggled round that corner against RWD cars as you have to be a lot more patient on the throttle. That car was driven round that corner not with the intent of getting out of it as fast as possible, but to block the exit.
I think you are both right but my first impression hasn't changed after about 20 viewings which is that the clio did nudge the 968s rear corner to push through. That whole video is not a good advert for TT as there is at least one other example on there of a car nudging another mid corner.
To add to another point made earlier about driving standards and the blue book rules not being enforced how many of us have seen incidents where a driver pulls a 2nd defensive move in a braking zone? This seems to happen all the time yet nobody does anything about it.
Honestly its stuff like this that makes UK club motorsport look a bad joke. A guy effectively tries to kill a fellow competitor in a race yet gets away with a slap on the wrist whilst on other occasions guys are being penalised for damaging bits of Dr Palmers grass verges. This sport has got all its priorities completely arse about face.
To add to another point made earlier about driving standards and the blue book rules not being enforced how many of us have seen incidents where a driver pulls a 2nd defensive move in a braking zone? This seems to happen all the time yet nobody does anything about it.
Honestly its stuff like this that makes UK club motorsport look a bad joke. A guy effectively tries to kill a fellow competitor in a race yet gets away with a slap on the wrist whilst on other occasions guys are being penalised for damaging bits of Dr Palmers grass verges. This sport has got all its priorities completely arse about face.
Sorry, but I thought they were involved in a race? Yes the Clio driver "could" have backed out but why should he? They are racing. It's not a f****** trackday. The track is more than wide enough for the two cars to run side by side and sort it out in the braking zone for the next bend fairly and squarely. The Porsche driver looked to have car control problems in the previous section at the very least being polite, and he deliberately forced the Clio off the track into possibly a lethal crash. He'd be living on Cuppa Soup for months if he'd have done that on purpose to a few people I know. As someone pointed out, it's just a fun hobby, albeit a dangerous one, but nobody wants to get hurt like that for what???
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