Making car safer without fitting roll cage

[Norfolkandchance]

Your advice please.

I've got a mk1 Golf which I occasionally sprint and hillclimb. I run in one of the lowest classes and am "legal" to compete with the standard 3 point belt and no cage.

For lots of valid reasons I don't want to fit a roll cage (this isn't final but I definitely don’t want a full cage, could get just one behind the seats).

I would like to make it safer though. Is there anything I can do - I was considering Hans, seat, harness but my research suggests that all of these have issues without a cage.

Thanks

[Tanuki]

If one of your valid reasons includes not wanting to chop the car around too much - then you're going to struggle to get anything in place to make seats, harnesses, HANS etc. to work properly.

[Tanuki]

...without wanting to appear too negative however - a very simple thing you can do to make any road car safer when sprinting / hill climbing is to common-sensically fix the seat runner (or better still - fit solid side mounts).

You don't want a stty old adjuster mechanism failing when you're driving - and even less so when you park in a barrier.

[BertBert]

Presumably changing from a normal road car seat to a race bucket of some kind would perhaps hold you in better in the event of an impact?

Also what about the CG-Lock thing? No idea if it's any use or not... http://www.cg-lock.co.uk/app/performance/

Bert

[BritishRacinGrin]

Seat and mount. Half cage in the back of the car, which will act as the mounting point for the shoulder straps of a 5 or 6 point harness.

Then don't roll it.

[spyderman8]

Totally agree with the above.

[Some Gump]

OP,

My old man was "helped" into the barrier at Knockhill hair pin years ago. Full cage, decent seat and harness, but no neck brace. He trapped a nerve at the time, and 15+ years later it still gives him gyp.

I have no idea what your reasons are (be it cost, usability etc etc) but IMO you're mental to do what you're doing with no safety gear. It's one thing to do a track day in a road car on a track with wide runoffs, totally different on a relatively sketchy hillclimb course.

It's a given that it probably won't happen to you, and I hope it doesn't - but for gods sake consider the knock on effects of your hobby on you and your family if it were to go wrong. If it's budget dictating it, buy something cheaper and do it right.

[andylaurence]

Some Gump said:

I have no idea what your reasons are (be it cost, usability etc etc) but IMO you're mental to do what you're doing with no safety gear. It's one thing to do a track day in a road car on a track with wide runoffs, totally different on a relatively sketchy hillclimb course.

It's a given that it probably won't happen to you, and I hope it doesn't - but for gods sake consider the knock on effects of your hobby on you and your family if it were to go wrong. If it's budget dictating it, buy something cheaper and do it right.

A hillclimb course might have solid objects close to the racing line, but speeds are significantly lower, especially for roadgoing cars. The safety record for hillclimbs is very good, especially in the roadgoing classes. Ironically, the last death in a speed event was at a circuit with modern safety features in a car with a roll cage. It's the driver's choice on non-mandatory safety equipment. Let's not forget that half the field at many events are standard road cars with 3 point inertia reel seatbelts, so the fitment of a good seat and a harness makes a step in the right direction.

[jeffw]

Harness without at least a half cage is a really issue if the car rolls. With an inertia belt you will be deflected to one side in the event the roof caves in as you roll, with a harness your head will support the roof in-lieu of a rollbar.

[jeffw]

andylaurence said:

A hillclimb course might have solid objects close to the racing line, but speeds are significantly lower, especially for roadgoing cars. The safety record for hillclimbs is very good, especially in the roadgoing classes. Ironically, the last death in a speed event was at a circuit with modern safety features in a car with a roll cage. It's the driver's choice on non-mandatory safety equipment. Let's not forget that half the field at many events are standard road cars with 3 point inertia reel seatbelts, so the fitment of a good seat and a harness makes a step in the right direction.

Which incident are you referring to Andy? The Sprint at Goodwood?

[tapkaJohnD]

A Mk2 in a frontal impact collision. The integrity of the passenger cell isn't impressive, don't suppose it would be any better in a roll-over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&a...

John

[marshal_alan]

sorry friend but speaking as a marshal there is no way would i even go as a passenger in a car without a cage, it isnt just the roll over protection but the fore and aft that gets a lot more steelwork. I have seen some pretty big impacts on sprints and TBH on hillclimbs where you have less runoff I would want a cage, decent seat and 6 point harness even for basic trackdays. What is your life worth to yourself and your family, a lot more than some safety gear.

If you dont want to spend the cash or cant afford the safety upgrades then perhaps it is time to go marshalling. Sorry for being blunt but I have been involved in some pretty big incidents and you just know if the car hadnt been caged the driver wouldnt have climbed out the wreckage and swore at the mess. Best words a driver can say to me when I run up is "feck me mate, made a right mess of that didnt I".

[Dan Friel]

As a marshal, and someone who hillclimbs, sprints and track days at the very lowest level, I have no issue with using a modern "standard" road car on track / hill. I'm confident that the car has safety cell and benefits from adequate restraint features. Don't forget that many race schools use standard cars, as do countless track dayers. The risk of using a single seater or kit car on a hill has to be significantly higher. However, that's not an excuse to be complacent of course.

I can't advise on the specifics of a Golf, but I'd want to be sure of roll over and side protection and there's no point using a race seat and harness if you're not 100%. I'd be thinking of a rear cage and a seat with decent side protection (hitting a tree sideways is probably the greatest risk).

[Furyblade_Lee]

BritishRacinGrin said:

Seat and mount. Half cage in the back of the car, which will act as the mounting point for the shoulder straps of a 5 or 6 point harness.

Then don't roll it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I do similar, airfield sprints not wory so much but for hillclimbs I would really want a full cage around me, there are trees you know.... Definately at least with no cage an FiA approved fixed seat with 4 point ( at least ) harness. But a 6 point cage can only weigh about 30kgs, the reasurance alone should be worth a few 10ths!!!!

[dancus]

As it's a saloon car, with a roof, I would be happy to run with a decent competition seat (well anchored) and harness. Maybe a HH extinguisher. Also, I'd pay special attention to a fuel pump inertia switch if fuel injected...
At the end of the day, it's your choice, look at the likleyhood of an accident, and its severity. Likley accidents would be frontal or side, less likley would be a slow roll. With no other cars involved in any accident, it is much safer, as there are fewer 'freak' occurances such as being punted into areas unpredictably or collisions at the start..
If you haven't been to a event, go along and have a chat with competitors about what levels of preparation for your standard of car.
Do you have a specific venue in mind ( there's a big difference in safety between scamonden dam and Goodwood !
Sprinting in a road car is supposed to be a inexpensive and fun way into motorsports, however, it has risk involved.

[Norfolkandchance]

Thanks for all the replies. Plenty to think about.

I agree that it is all about the amount of risk one is willing to take. Since I got married and had a family I have stopped riding a motorcycle, for example. However, it is possible to manage the risk and that is what I was enquiring about.

A few extra details: I didn't want to get into a discussion about why I didn't want a full cage but one or two people have guessed wrongly so I'll explain that it is, ironically, safety related. I use the same car for sprints, the odd hillclimb and for 12 car and classic road rallies. For the latter two helmets are definately not allowed as it would look like racing on the road. I did have a full cage in my last competition car which meant that the bar the crosses at the top of the windscreen was about 3 or 4 inches closer to my head than the windscreen would be. So, in probably the most likely crash - slithering into a tree at 20mph or colliding with another road user at low speed - there is a good chance of the middle of my forehead hitting a very solid cage and a fairly slow accident having a big impact.

I agree that venue is important. I mainly do sprints so there is plenty of run off. Hills tend to be pretty slow - the only one I think of as being high speed is Hollow at Gurston, but I've only been to 4 or 5 hills. I competed at Goodwood (with a full cage / seat / belts) once and wouldn't do again without similar gear. Its too fast and, to be frank, I never really felt that I had got to grips with it (though I was only a few tenths of the class record so I'd like to go back one day...)

So, I'll pick venues carefully and think about seat, extinguisher rear cage and harnesses.

[dancus]

Glad you're fiving IT some thought! Don't forget to check the fuel cutoff! They can be added cheaply!

[Furyblade_Lee]

Norfolkandchance said:

Thanks for all the replies. Plenty to think about.

I agree that it is all about the amount of risk one is willing to take. Since I got married and had a family I have stopped riding a motorcycle, for example. However, it is possible to manage the risk and that is what I was enquiring about.

A few extra details: I didn't want to get into a discussion about why I didn't want a full cage but one or two people have guessed wrongly so I'll explain that it is, ironically, safety related. I use the same car for sprints, the odd hillclimb and for 12 car and classic road rallies. For the latter two helmets are definately not allowed as it would look like racing on the road. I did have a full cage in my last competition car which meant that the bar the crosses at the top of the windscreen was about 3 or 4 inches closer to my head than the windscreen would be. So, in probably the most likely crash - slithering into a tree at 20mph or colliding with another road user at low speed - there is a good chance of the middle of my forehead hitting a very solid cage and a fairly slow accident having a big impact.

I agree that venue is important. I mainly do sprints so there is plenty of run off. Hills tend to be pretty slow - the only one I think of as being high speed is Hollow at Gurston, but I've only been to 4 or 5 hills. I competed at Goodwood (with a full cage / seat / belts) once and wouldn't do again without similar gear. Its too fast and, to be frank, I never really felt that I had got to grips with it (though I was only a few tenths of the class record so I'd like to go back one day...)

So, I'll pick venues carefully and think about seat, extinguisher rear cage and harnesses.

This is a common theme around cages is cars. I have 2 road car with full cages, both have padding on ( neat and tidy ) in any area likely to impact. But I cannot see how my unproteced head would hit any of it with even a normal seatbelt? more likely in a roll with no cage the screen would collapse and come and hit ME, a cage would stop that happening in the first place. Your call, but personally I ould not go near any venue tith trees and stone walls 10/10ths without a full cage, FiA seat or harness. Also people seem to differentiate the hardness of the steel used in a roll cage and the steel used for your cars A and B pillars. It's the same stuff , and both will crack your skull open, best make sure your car stays reasonably in the same shape after clouting an immovable object! For me that argument is a weak one in a car used for competition. In a brand new NCAP 5* rated car i'd take my chances, but not in a classic!!!

[andylaurence]

Furyblade_Lee said:

But I cannot see how my unproteced head would hit any of it with even a normal seatbelt?

If there's nothing between it and your head, then your head will hit it. Even with a properly adjusted 6 point harness, you move about in a crash by more than you'd ever expect. If you didn't, why would they mandate a helmet in racing cars? They'd just let the seat/cage do the job...