Road rallies - navigator needed and is a Boxster suitable?
Discussion
Just as an update, I'm making progress regarding that car - I realised I know a local Porsche motorsport garage (from racing with/against the owners) so I'm trying to get it looked over by them. I've also had one local guy get in touch about navigating, but he's not sure yet if he'll be able to make the Colman Tyres event, so I'm still looking
However, I took a car in part exchange yesterday and a thought occurred to me - would a Toyota Rav4 2.0 be eligible if it was made 2WD?
However, I took a car in part exchange yesterday and a thought occurred to me - would a Toyota Rav4 2.0 be eligible if it was made 2WD?
velocemitch said:
What is still banned as a legacy of 1987 are twin cam engines without fuel injection or those running on Twin carbs with double chokes. (Ie the limit is two chokes total).
This one always struck me as odd - you can have a twin cam engine on fuel injection, but not on carbs, so something like an MGA twin cam is banned (OK, possibly not the most obvious road rally vehicle) but all sorts of much faster moderns are allowed.velocemitch said:
Cages are not mandatory on any road events, so it's entirely down to personal decisions. 6 point bolted in is fine.
I expect if a cage is fitted and it is clearly rubbish a scrutineer might comment but he can only do that, he can't prevent you using it.
I've seen and competed in lots of cars with cages that don't strictly comply with the latest rules. After all you can bring a car straight out of showroom and compete if you want.
I know that is the case but wondered if a six point or clubman would be suitable. What I've found for the puma is that in order of increasing expense:I expect if a cage is fitted and it is clearly rubbish a scrutineer might comment but he can only do that, he can't prevent you using it.
I've seen and competed in lots of cars with cages that don't strictly comply with the latest rules. After all you can bring a car straight out of showroom and compete if you want.
Weld in clubman/6 point £5-600
Weld in multipoint £7-800
Bolt in £1000
I have access to a decent workshop and can weld (or practice loads before I start!)
I also notice that the entry to events has an optional price of "membership to organising club" which is about £10-20. Do you still pay this if you are a member of another car club?
thegoose said:
Just as an update, I'm making progress regarding that car - I realised I know a local Porsche motorsport garage (from racing with/against the owners) so I'm trying to get it looked over by them. I've also had one local guy get in touch about navigating, but he's not sure yet if he'll be able to make the Colman Tyres event, so I'm still looking
However, I took a car in part exchange yesterday and a thought occurred to me - would a Toyota Rav4 2.0 be eligible if it was made 2WD?
Depends on the event, with a road rally permit the driven wheels have to remain unaltered, or in other words if it's FWD you can't make it RWD, if it's 4WD you can't make it RWD etc. 4WD isn't specifically banned though.However, I took a car in part exchange yesterday and a thought occurred to me - would a Toyota Rav4 2.0 be eligible if it was made 2WD?
On a navigational permit (like the Colman Tyres), I don't think that applies, but i would have to double check which clause it is that includes that.
dai1983 said:
velocemitch said:
Cages are not mandatory on any road events, so it's entirely down to personal decisions. 6 point bolted in is fine.
I expect if a cage is fitted and it is clearly rubbish a scrutineer might comment but he can only do that, he can't prevent you using it.
I've seen and competed in lots of cars with cages that don't strictly comply with the latest rules. After all you can bring a car straight out of showroom and compete if you want.
I know that is the case but wondered if a six point or clubman would be suitable. What I've found for the puma is that in order of increasing expense:I expect if a cage is fitted and it is clearly rubbish a scrutineer might comment but he can only do that, he can't prevent you using it.
I've seen and competed in lots of cars with cages that don't strictly comply with the latest rules. After all you can bring a car straight out of showroom and compete if you want.
Weld in clubman/6 point £5-600
Weld in multipoint £7-800
Bolt in £1000
I have access to a decent workshop and can weld (or practice loads before I start!)
I also notice that the entry to events has an optional price of "membership to organising club" which is about £10-20. Do you still pay this if you are a member of another car club?
You have to be a member of an MSA motor club to do any MSA event. If the event is 'closed to club' you have to be a member of that club. If it's national B you have to be a member of an invited club, most clubs invite the area associations, so if the club is in the area it's invited. A lot of people who do events all around the country join a club like HRCR as that just about gets you anywhere.
I'd always recommend joining a local club, especially one which is involved in the discipline you want to go into.
heebeegeetee said:
Great thread - are Colman Tyres still going?
OH yes.... 
Brought it back this year.
http://www.ilkleymotorclub.org.uk/colman/
thegoose said:
So, how does this look?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proton-Satria-GTi-Road-R...
From a safety perspective I think I'd want to change the seats to proper competition ones and probably get the cage welded in. I only used normal seats in my Manta but I'm more aware of safety now I'm older (see the link in my previous post for the video of my bad crash - the car was very well built and held up brilliantly, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be alive now if it was a road car, whereas at the time I was just a bit sore for a few days, well apart from the shard of glass that came out of my elbow a few weeks later
).
Other than that, thoughts on car/price please?
The car and the owners are genuine rally folk and the car looks in mint condition, it has been up for sale for a while but I guess the price was just too high.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proton-Satria-GTi-Road-R...
From a safety perspective I think I'd want to change the seats to proper competition ones and probably get the cage welded in. I only used normal seats in my Manta but I'm more aware of safety now I'm older (see the link in my previous post for the video of my bad crash - the car was very well built and held up brilliantly, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be alive now if it was a road car, whereas at the time I was just a bit sore for a few days, well apart from the shard of glass that came out of my elbow a few weeks later
).Other than that, thoughts on car/price please?
onomatopoeia said:
velocemitch said:
What is still banned as a legacy of 1987 are twin cam engines without fuel injection or those running on Twin carbs with double chokes. (Ie the limit is two chokes total).
This one always struck me as odd - you can have a twin cam engine on fuel injection, but not on carbs, so something like an MGA twin cam is banned (OK, possibly not the most obvious road rally vehicle) but all sorts of much faster moderns are allowed.Cars built before 1968 CAN run with twin cams and twin double choke carbs. It only applies to cars built from 1st January 1968 onwards.
It's about Escorts, it was brought in in 1987 when they decided to reign it all back after they realised that running a full house stage spec group 4 Escort at full speeds on the open public roads probably wasn't that good an idea really. So they decided to ban the BDA's it also picked up Twin Webbers on the Pinto's too. The 6 Cylinder thing came in at the same time to stop the 911's and the 240Z's. At that point Fuel injection wasn't really used much and they have never altered the rule.
So we are left in a bizzare situation where it is illegal to use my Alfa 2000GTV on a night road rally (I can get a waiver for daylight ones) but I could use a Mk2 Escort with a highly tuned Vauxhall Red top in it.
velocemitch said:
heebeegeetee said:
Great thread - are Colman Tyres still going?
OH yes.... Brought it back this year.
http://www.ilkleymotorclub.org.uk/colman/
Hi My first post and knew it would be something rally related!
You won't go far wrong with a proton,strong,reliable(Mitsubishi) and cheap ish depending on spec.Id have said that's about the right price
Standard ish cars with all the safety gear and a few subtle mods are circa £3000,full Hockly spec cars with dog box etc probably in the £6-8k(road rally spec)region.
You won't go far wrong with a proton,strong,reliable(Mitsubishi) and cheap ish depending on spec.Id have said that's about the right price
Standard ish cars with all the safety gear and a few subtle mods are circa £3000,full Hockly spec cars with dog box etc probably in the £6-8k(road rally spec)region.
Edited by rs_fiesta on Sunday 23 August 08:59
I thought I'd better update this in case anyone's interested.
The Proton didn't come off - when I spoke to the seller on the Monday evening I said I'd have the car subject to it being checked over local to him (due to the distance it was from me). and he was in direct contact with them to make convenient arrangements. He didn't ask for a deposit (which I'd have happily given) but instead took me at my word. The garage confirmed they could look it over no later than 11am Friday (so I could have paid for it in full by noon and sorted out collection later), but the seller had someone else get in touch on Thursday and took a deposit off them on the basis they'd collect it Friday night, which I presume happened as I didn't hear any more from him. So either the seller was worried about having his car inspected (in which case I avoided the associated costs) or he just wasn't a ery honourable bloke.
Anyway, after various messages with velocemitch, who's been very helpful and, crucially, found me a navigator with some experience and for the event we're doing, local knowledge so we've entered this weekend's Colman Tyres event in Yorkshire (must remember my passport). I had planned to use an old Toyota Rav4 that came in part exchange recently, on the basis that it was the only thing I had that fitted reg's, has good ground clearance and isn't particularly valuable. However, on eBay I came across a reasonably local Peugeot 306 GTi6 that had been prep'd for road rallies listed at £950, complete with a few months' MOT. I got hold of the seller to find out a bit more, and did an HPi check, which revealed a double Cat-C status that the seller didn't know about Undeterred, I decided it was worth going to see, so hitched up the trailer and off I went last Tuesday. I was expecting to find a few issues but didn't think a leaking rear brake pipe and empty fluid reservoir would be amongst them! However, it seemed basically sound, ran OK (once I'd re-attached the aftermarket air filter) and drove alright (although it doesn't seem to have as much of an eager response as I was expecting, it kind of feels like you're wringing it's reluctant neck). Cosmetically it's quite scruffy, including a bashed-back-out-again large dent/gauge in the nearside rear wing, which is probably the reason for the Cat C status (a relief really as it's purely cosmetic). The rev counter and (more importantly) temperature gauge don't work and it sometimes has a propensity for stalling. No matter, I negotiated a lower price (partly to help towards the essential work to the brakes) and duly loaded it on the trailer to come home.
I left it with a local garage on the way back with instruction to check it over for safety etc along with a list of bits & bobs to attend to. I was away till yesterday but after a phone call on Monday (awful coverage where I was on a short break from Thursday) the headline of which was them saying they "didn't want to get involved with it" and me persuading them to do the brake pipes and change the fluid (to the new ATE DOT4 Class 6 stuff that apparently supercedes Racing Blue, but has a lower boiling point of 265 degrees rather than 280 - still better than standard DOT 4 at 235 though). So, I got it back yesterday afternoon, fiddled around with a few odds and ends (lights, wipers, washers etc) and tried the fix I'd read on the internet for the rev counter - a new multi purpose/fuel pump relay. This didnt work, and leaves me questioning the internet's ability to fix my cars. I have however determined the maximum speeds in each gear (well, the lower ones) before the rev limiter cuts in, so that'll do for now. The internet fix for the temp gauge is new sensors - there are 3 though and Euro Car Parts only listed two. I have them here and will try them later - I didn't do so yesterday as I didn't want to risk disabling the car before a test drive last night. I really would like the gauge to work but at least I know the radiator is nearly new and the fan has been wired to a dash switch so I can flick it on permanently.
The test drive on damp roads with a an unknown car on forest rally type tall front tyres and standard rear tyres, coupled with wrong-wheel-drive was something I took to cautiously. However, it seems to go OK (very loud exhaust) although the lift-off oversteer on roundabouts was a little more sever than I was expecting (I put this down to the tyres). I didn't experiment to see if the ABS is operational but I suspect not.
So, within a matter of weeks since my first thoughts and post on the subject I've bought a car, found a navigator and entered an event - let's see how we get on on Saturday night!
Here's the spec of the car:
Peugeot 306 GTi6
12 owners
104,000 miles on the clock (it may even be accurate, who knows?)
No service history but cleanish looking oil
No idea when the timing belt was last changed (if ever)
Full welded in roll cage (with lots of padding that squeeks a *lot* when driving)
Twin fibreglass competition bucket seats
Twin four point harnesses
Navigator's footplate
Navigator's LED lights on cage and extra cig lighter socket for Potti etc
Sturdy looking spotlight brackets and wiring (using my navigator's spotlights on the first event)
blanked off front foglight apertures
Alloy sumpguard
Non-standard exhaust back box
Dash switches for cooling fan, heater fan and spotlight relay
Deep dished steering wheel (with *very* dirty suede rim if the state of my hands after last night's drive are anything to go by)
....and all for a lot less than one set of the tyres I used to race on, which would last one meeting!
The outcome of the event will determine what happens next e.g. service, timing belt, set of tyres etc or whether I look for something else instead and put this up for sale (or whatever's left of it after a night's rallying!).
The seeded entry list is out and we're last Semi-Expert (of 5) so the aim is to finish higher, ideally with a podium, but I'm under no illusion that this will be down to the navigator and my ability to listen to him and do as I'm told, as well as the car functioning OK too.
I'll update next week as I'm likely to be resting on Sunday and then at the Oulton Park Gold Cup on Monday, but for now I'm quite excited about getting back into the sport.
The Proton didn't come off - when I spoke to the seller on the Monday evening I said I'd have the car subject to it being checked over local to him (due to the distance it was from me). and he was in direct contact with them to make convenient arrangements. He didn't ask for a deposit (which I'd have happily given) but instead took me at my word. The garage confirmed they could look it over no later than 11am Friday (so I could have paid for it in full by noon and sorted out collection later), but the seller had someone else get in touch on Thursday and took a deposit off them on the basis they'd collect it Friday night, which I presume happened as I didn't hear any more from him. So either the seller was worried about having his car inspected (in which case I avoided the associated costs) or he just wasn't a ery honourable bloke.
Anyway, after various messages with velocemitch, who's been very helpful and, crucially, found me a navigator with some experience and for the event we're doing, local knowledge so we've entered this weekend's Colman Tyres event in Yorkshire (must remember my passport). I had planned to use an old Toyota Rav4 that came in part exchange recently, on the basis that it was the only thing I had that fitted reg's, has good ground clearance and isn't particularly valuable. However, on eBay I came across a reasonably local Peugeot 306 GTi6 that had been prep'd for road rallies listed at £950, complete with a few months' MOT. I got hold of the seller to find out a bit more, and did an HPi check, which revealed a double Cat-C status that the seller didn't know about
Undeterred, I decided it was worth going to see, so hitched up the trailer and off I went last Tuesday. I was expecting to find a few issues but didn't think a leaking rear brake pipe and empty fluid reservoir would be amongst them! However, it seemed basically sound, ran OK (once I'd re-attached the aftermarket air filter) and drove alright (although it doesn't seem to have as much of an eager response as I was expecting, it kind of feels like you're wringing it's reluctant neck). Cosmetically it's quite scruffy, including a bashed-back-out-again large dent/gauge in the nearside rear wing, which is probably the reason for the Cat C status (a relief really as it's purely cosmetic). The rev counter and (more importantly) temperature gauge don't work and it sometimes has a propensity for stalling. No matter, I negotiated a lower price (partly to help towards the essential work to the brakes) and duly loaded it on the trailer to come home. I left it with a local garage on the way back with instruction to check it over for safety etc along with a list of bits & bobs to attend to. I was away till yesterday but after a phone call on Monday (awful coverage where I was on a short break from Thursday) the headline of which was them saying they "didn't want to get involved with it" and me persuading them to do the brake pipes and change the fluid (to the new ATE DOT4 Class 6 stuff that apparently supercedes Racing Blue, but has a lower boiling point of 265 degrees rather than 280 - still better than standard DOT 4 at 235 though). So, I got it back yesterday afternoon, fiddled around with a few odds and ends (lights, wipers, washers etc) and tried the fix I'd read on the internet for the rev counter - a new multi purpose/fuel pump relay. This didnt work, and leaves me questioning the internet's ability to fix my cars. I have however determined the maximum speeds in each gear (well, the lower ones) before the rev limiter cuts in, so that'll do for now. The internet fix for the temp gauge is new sensors - there are 3 though and Euro Car Parts only listed two. I have them here and will try them later - I didn't do so yesterday as I didn't want to risk disabling the car before a test drive last night. I really would like the gauge to work but at least I know the radiator is nearly new and the fan has been wired to a dash switch so I can flick it on permanently.
The test drive on damp roads with a an unknown car on forest rally type tall front tyres and standard rear tyres, coupled with wrong-wheel-drive was something I took to cautiously. However, it seems to go OK (very loud exhaust) although the lift-off oversteer on roundabouts was a little more sever than I was expecting (I put this down to the tyres). I didn't experiment to see if the ABS is operational but I suspect not.
So, within a matter of weeks since my first thoughts and post on the subject I've bought a car, found a navigator and entered an event - let's see how we get on on Saturday night!
Here's the spec of the car:
Peugeot 306 GTi6
12 owners
104,000 miles on the clock (it may even be accurate, who knows?)
No service history but cleanish looking oil
No idea when the timing belt was last changed (if ever)
Full welded in roll cage (with lots of padding that squeeks a *lot* when driving)
Twin fibreglass competition bucket seats
Twin four point harnesses
Navigator's footplate
Navigator's LED lights on cage and extra cig lighter socket for Potti etc
Sturdy looking spotlight brackets and wiring (using my navigator's spotlights on the first event)
blanked off front foglight apertures
Alloy sumpguard
Non-standard exhaust back box
Dash switches for cooling fan, heater fan and spotlight relay
Deep dished steering wheel (with *very* dirty suede rim if the state of my hands after last night's drive are anything to go by)
....and all for a lot less than one set of the tyres I used to race on, which would last one meeting!
The outcome of the event will determine what happens next e.g. service, timing belt, set of tyres etc or whether I look for something else instead and put this up for sale (or whatever's left of it after a night's rallying!).
The seeded entry list is out and we're last Semi-Expert (of 5) so the aim is to finish higher, ideally with a podium, but I'm under no illusion that this will be down to the navigator and my ability to listen to him and do as I'm told, as well as the car functioning OK too.
I'll update next week as I'm likely to be resting on Sunday and then at the Oulton Park Gold Cup on Monday, but for now I'm quite excited about getting back into the sport.
Nice catch up post, looking forward to saying hello on Saturday evening.
aBS will be disabled, it's a menace. Might nee to put the fuse back in if it makes it an mot.
Your thoughts are right about listening to Dave, down at that end of the field it's about those who make the least mistakes. Take it steady on the rough bits and drive for a finish.
aBS will be disabled, it's a menace. Might nee to put the fuse back in if it makes it an mot.
Your thoughts are right about listening to Dave, down at that end of the field it's about those who make the least mistakes. Take it steady on the rough bits and drive for a finish.
Think Marcus is busy fixing the Car...... it died about 10 miles into the event, seemed like the Cam belt.
After a shaky start following a visit from the Boys in Blue (who went away happy enough) the Colman Tyres went very very well and it looks like we will be running it again next year.
The Clitheronian is full now, 50 entries with just under two weeks to go brilliant effort by Paul and Steve and the rest of CDMC.
After a shaky start following a visit from the Boys in Blue (who went away happy enough) the Colman Tyres went very very well and it looks like we will be running it again next year.
The Clitheronian is full now, 50 entries with just under two weeks to go brilliant effort by Paul and Steve and the rest of CDMC.
OK, the short version is that after a start time of 10.56 pm we ran until 1.30am when the timing belt snapped whilst pootling along on a transport section. My navigator got a lift in the back of a Metro that had dropped out due to a broken driveshaft (they were able to drive it back due to the stiff diff it had!) and I had to wait all alone in the middle of nowhere for a very nice man from the AA to ferry me and the car home. Without a map of my own I had literally no idea where I was, but thankfully they found me just fine. I got back home at 5am.
I had avoided changing the belt etc beforehand because the cost of doing so would be approaching 50% of the purchase price of the car, I instead decided to give the event a go with the intention of a thorough service and belt change afterwards, together with any other bits & bobs that became apparent on the event. Obviously, if I'd had a crystal ball I'd have done things differently, but the garage's estimate for sorting it out is only £3-400 on top of what a pre-emptive belt change would have cost me, so whilst the gamble didn't pay off, it wasn't catastrophic price-wise and will also be improved due to a full top end refresh. It turns out 10 of 16 valves were bent, so once that's sorted it's having a service, the rev counter and temp gauge being made to work, a hydraulic handbrake fitted and I'll probably get them to check it out/tune it up on their rolling road too. I've also bought some of my own spotlights of eBay, which I'll fit, but probably with a high power HID kit fitted, and I need to get some more or improved navigator's interior map reading lights. I'll be away for the Clitheronian but will be looking to do an event as soon as possible when I get back at the end of September.
I had avoided changing the belt etc beforehand because the cost of doing so would be approaching 50% of the purchase price of the car, I instead decided to give the event a go with the intention of a thorough service and belt change afterwards, together with any other bits & bobs that became apparent on the event. Obviously, if I'd had a crystal ball I'd have done things differently, but the garage's estimate for sorting it out is only £3-400 on top of what a pre-emptive belt change would have cost me, so whilst the gamble didn't pay off, it wasn't catastrophic price-wise and will also be improved due to a full top end refresh. It turns out 10 of 16 valves were bent, so once that's sorted it's having a service, the rev counter and temp gauge being made to work, a hydraulic handbrake fitted and I'll probably get them to check it out/tune it up on their rolling road too. I've also bought some of my own spotlights of eBay, which I'll fit, but probably with a high power HID kit fitted, and I need to get some more or improved navigator's interior map reading lights. I'll be away for the Clitheronian but will be looking to do an event as soon as possible when I get back at the end of September.
Can't use HID kits Marcus, has to be conventional bulbs, lots of people use 100w ones, but they technically illegal too. The only time you can use HID is if it's a factory fit on the actual car. LED is banned too.
Events to look out for are;a
The Jackson Trophy (Sheffield and Hallamshire) on the 3rd/4th October, starting at the Lefarge Cement works near Hope and running North entirely on Map 110.
The Illuminations Rally... The Lummies!... (Morecambe car club) 24th/25th October, usually starts in West Lancashire using Cumbria and North Yorkshire.
The Dansport (Matlock Motor club) 7th/8th November, starts in Chesterfield uses Derbyshires finest.
There is now one space left on the Clitheronian following a pulled entry last night.
Events to look out for are;a
The Jackson Trophy (Sheffield and Hallamshire) on the 3rd/4th October, starting at the Lefarge Cement works near Hope and running North entirely on Map 110.
The Illuminations Rally... The Lummies!... (Morecambe car club) 24th/25th October, usually starts in West Lancashire using Cumbria and North Yorkshire.
The Dansport (Matlock Motor club) 7th/8th November, starts in Chesterfield uses Derbyshires finest.
There is now one space left on the Clitheronian following a pulled entry last night.
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