Interpreting the Regs.
Discussion
The Blue Book says:
Section J (Competitors) 5.13.1. "Have any fuel lines passing through the driver/passenger compartment protected and, if non-metallic, ..." etc. etc.
I want to run a metal fuel line along the floor of the crew compartment of a rally car, either copper pipe or specialist stuff like Krontec Hardline.
It seems sensible to "protect" this metal tube, in case it gets stepped on and crushed.
While the regulation goes on about "metal braided ... hose ... FIA specifications", it gives no guidance on how to "protect" metal pipe.
How have others gone about this?
John
Section J (Competitors) 5.13.1. "Have any fuel lines passing through the driver/passenger compartment protected and, if non-metallic, ..." etc. etc.
I want to run a metal fuel line along the floor of the crew compartment of a rally car, either copper pipe or specialist stuff like Krontec Hardline.
It seems sensible to "protect" this metal tube, in case it gets stepped on and crushed.
While the regulation goes on about "metal braided ... hose ... FIA specifications", it gives no guidance on how to "protect" metal pipe.
How have others gone about this?
John
I guess protect the metal pipe...with more metal ? lol
Unless there is actually a risk of daily contact etc, cant see it needing too much protection.
I'm sure anything that prevents direct contact with the pipe from stuff in the vehicle, including people would be ok. Whether that's more metal, plastic, or some sort of lid/barrier, not sure.
Unless there is actually a risk of daily contact etc, cant see it needing too much protection.
I'm sure anything that prevents direct contact with the pipe from stuff in the vehicle, including people would be ok. Whether that's more metal, plastic, or some sort of lid/barrier, not sure.
Braided rubber lets the smell through.
Braided PTFE is much, much better, but costs!
Metals don't let vapour through at all, except possibly at joints.
And are cheap!
I'll be most interested to hear from someone who has used metal pipe.
I quoted the MSA Reg, that uses the word 'protection'.
Has anyone runa metal pipe and left it naked
What did scrutineers say?
John
Braided PTFE is much, much better, but costs!
Metals don't let vapour through at all, except possibly at joints.
And are cheap!
I'll be most interested to hear from someone who has used metal pipe.
I quoted the MSA Reg, that uses the word 'protection'.
Has anyone runa metal pipe and left it naked
What did scrutineers say?
John
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Wednesday 14th October 16:38
I hope these help, it's a Seat Leon Supercopa.
The additional tank was fitted by Spork Racing (Belgian Team) and was used in endurance events over there.
It then came back to the UK, was run in Britcar by TCR for PMW Expo.
I've used it this season.
No issues with the fillers for me, and none for the previous owners as far as I am aware.
tapkaJohnD said:
Plastic "plumbing pipe"?
When I'm looking for an alternative to steel braided rubber hose that lets the smell through?
And which is the only other type of piping that the MSA will allow?
Sorry, I'm not rushing down to some builders suppliers!
Any more ideas, please?
John
The only types of hose permitted in car by MSA and most sensible rules are either metal or PTFE based.When I'm looking for an alternative to steel braided rubber hose that lets the smell through?
And which is the only other type of piping that the MSA will allow?
Sorry, I'm not rushing down to some builders suppliers!
Any more ideas, please?
John
Rubber hose should never be used through the cabin.
PTFE pipe from some of the cheaper suppliers isnt usually prohibitively expensive and seems to be of decent quality. The same cannot be said for the cheaper brands of nitrile rubber stainless overbraid hose ( which is not allowed in-car anyway )
The Seat does not comply with the rules that require a bulkhead between a fuel filler pipe and the cockpit. The obvious solution is aluminium concertina pipe as seen on othe cars including Seats to make it legal and of course safe.
Interesting question about a metal fuel line in the cockpit. I guess the rule was written to prevent the use of rubber fuel pipes. Why not e-mail the MSA with your question and post their reply here? I would have thought a rigid metal fuel line offered better protection than a s/s braided fuel line.
Interesting question about a metal fuel line in the cockpit. I guess the rule was written to prevent the use of rubber fuel pipes. Why not e-mail the MSA with your question and post their reply here? I would have thought a rigid metal fuel line offered better protection than a s/s braided fuel line.
Indigorallye,
Thank you for your interest in my question, but like those who comment above, I am amazed that free standing, unsupported pipes that contain fuel are allowed.
My plan was to clip the pipes to the floor every foot or so, as otherwise they are not just "unprotected" but made even more vulnerable!
Stevieturbo,
I'd be most grateful for the paragraph number in which the MSA specifies PTFE hose. J.5.13.1 doesn't, and I can't see anywhere else that does so. See below.
Weslake-Monza,
Thank you! Email to "technical@msa.org.uk" is in the post.
And indigo, again,
I fear that car may fall foul of the following regs:
J.5.13.2. They may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or vehicle manufacturers approved joint.
AND
K.14.1.2. Fuel (a) Fuel Tanks and Pipes – every effort should be made to isolate fuel tanks and pipes from the driver/passenger compartment. The risk of fuel spillage from accident damage can be reduced by use of bag type tanks or by coating metal tanks with GRP. Tanks should be located so that they are given maximum protection by the structure of the vehicle. Vents should be designed to avoid spillage if the vehicle becomes inverted.
(b) Fuel Fillers – these should be designed and located to reduce risk of damage. Filler caps should not be liable to open in the case of an accident. Simple screw caps are effective. The positive locking of the fuel filler caps is recommended. The filler pipe to the tank should be of minimum possible length and not protrude beyond the bodywork.
AND
Q.19.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and the driver/passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of the bulkhead between the passenger and luggage compartments, an additional bulkhead must be fitted.
AND (a rally regulation, not circuits)
R.18.1.7. If equipped with a non standard fuel tank it must be separated from the driver/passenger compartment by a protective bulkhead of non-flammable material preventing the passage of fluid or flame.
Repeated (!) in:
R.48.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and driver/passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of a bulkhead between passenger and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead must be fitted. Additional fuel tank protection may be required.
AND, especially relevant to my application:
R.48.7.1. Fuel lines may be installed within the driver/passenger compartment on safety grounds (J.5.13).
And yet again, in the 2008 Appendix 2:
Body 2008/269. Vehicles must have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and the Driver/Passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of a bulkhead between the Passenger and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead must be fitted. Additional fuel tank protection may be required.
All from a PDF search for "fuel" of the Blue Book on disc.
As before, I'll be grateful for other examples of how people have installed metal fuel lines.
And I will post the MSA response, if any.
JOhn
PS edited multiple times to try and emphasise the relevant passages. Doesn't work!
Thank you for your interest in my question, but like those who comment above, I am amazed that free standing, unsupported pipes that contain fuel are allowed.
My plan was to clip the pipes to the floor every foot or so, as otherwise they are not just "unprotected" but made even more vulnerable!
Stevieturbo,
I'd be most grateful for the paragraph number in which the MSA specifies PTFE hose. J.5.13.1 doesn't, and I can't see anywhere else that does so. See below.
Weslake-Monza,
Thank you! Email to "technical@msa.org.uk" is in the post.
And indigo, again,
I fear that car may fall foul of the following regs:
J.5.13.2. They may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or vehicle manufacturers approved joint.
AND
K.14.1.2. Fuel (a) Fuel Tanks and Pipes – every effort should be made to isolate fuel tanks and pipes from the driver/passenger compartment. The risk of fuel spillage from accident damage can be reduced by use of bag type tanks or by coating metal tanks with GRP. Tanks should be located so that they are given maximum protection by the structure of the vehicle. Vents should be designed to avoid spillage if the vehicle becomes inverted.
(b) Fuel Fillers – these should be designed and located to reduce risk of damage. Filler caps should not be liable to open in the case of an accident. Simple screw caps are effective. The positive locking of the fuel filler caps is recommended. The filler pipe to the tank should be of minimum possible length and not protrude beyond the bodywork.
AND
Q.19.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and the driver/passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of the bulkhead between the passenger and luggage compartments, an additional bulkhead must be fitted.
AND (a rally regulation, not circuits)
R.18.1.7. If equipped with a non standard fuel tank it must be separated from the driver/passenger compartment by a protective bulkhead of non-flammable material preventing the passage of fluid or flame.
Repeated (!) in:
R.48.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and driver/passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of a bulkhead between passenger and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead must be fitted. Additional fuel tank protection may be required.
AND, especially relevant to my application:
R.48.7.1. Fuel lines may be installed within the driver/passenger compartment on safety grounds (J.5.13).
And yet again, in the 2008 Appendix 2:
Body 2008/269. Vehicles must have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and the Driver/Passenger compartment sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of a bulkhead between the Passenger and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead must be fitted. Additional fuel tank protection may be required.
All from a PDF search for "fuel" of the Blue Book on disc.
As before, I'll be grateful for other examples of how people have installed metal fuel lines.
And I will post the MSA response, if any.
JOhn
PS edited multiple times to try and emphasise the relevant passages. Doesn't work!
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Thursday 15th October 08:30
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Thursday 15th October 08:31
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Thursday 15th October 08:32
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Thursday 15th October 08:33
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Thursday 15th October 08:34
The Oracle has spoken!
Dear John,
Protected, does not necessarily mean it has to be covered. It would be considered protected if the fuel lines were routed in such a way that there is no risk of damage. However if they are routed though vulnerable areas such as footwells, then a cover using a material of enough strength to prevent the pipe being crushed or damaged will meet the regulation.
Best Regards
Michael
Michael Duncan
Technical Administrator
Motor Sports Association, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG
T: +44 (0)1753 765037 | M: +44 (0)7824 663 720 |michael.duncan@msauk.org
cid:image008.jpg@01CE62D5.D4FE8850@msauk cid:image009.jpg@01CE62D5.D4FE8850/msauk|www.msauk.org
The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited, trading as Motor Sports Association.
Registered in England and Wales 1344829. For full email disclaimer, please click here.
Dear John,
Protected, does not necessarily mean it has to be covered. It would be considered protected if the fuel lines were routed in such a way that there is no risk of damage. However if they are routed though vulnerable areas such as footwells, then a cover using a material of enough strength to prevent the pipe being crushed or damaged will meet the regulation.
Best Regards
Michael
Michael Duncan
Technical Administrator
Motor Sports Association, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG
T: +44 (0)1753 765037 | M: +44 (0)7824 663 720 |michael.duncan@msauk.org
cid:image008.jpg@01CE62D5.D4FE8850@msauk cid:image009.jpg@01CE62D5.D4FE8850/msauk|www.msauk.org
The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited, trading as Motor Sports Association.
Registered in England and Wales 1344829. For full email disclaimer, please click here.
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