Race simulators?

[captain jack]

Hi - have any of the racers here used any of the advanced simulators such as those operated by Darren Turner (Base Performance) or Andy Priaulx (iZone)? If you have what did you think of them and how useful were they compared to actually competing?

[bozla]

captain jack said:

Hi - have any of the racers here used any of the advanced simulators such as those operated by Darren Turner (Base Performance) or Andy Priaulx (iZone)? If you have what did you think of them and how useful were they compared to actually competing?

I've never used a commercial one, but I have my own one at home. The only thing I regret is not getting one earlier - very useful indeed.

[BertBert]

I've used a couple including the base perf one.

I have mixed thoughts. I found them good for learning circuits and lines. However as an actual simulation of driving and driving a specific car I found then pretty hopeless.

I figure you can learn the circuit just as easily with rfactor and a force feedback wheel at home.

Bert

[NJH]

100% agreed Bert. I went to the lengths of modifying one of the cars in rFactor to make it corner and accelerate at the same speeds as what we had from the data logging of real race cars. If it was just the same I would have won a couple of championships by now but a massive lack of seat time in real life always held me back even though I was repeatedly nagged about that by fellow racers. Its my one real regret over the past 5 years, spent time and money fiddling with the car instead of driving it.

[NJH]

Just like to add though there are a couple of areas where it has helped me massively apart from knowing which way a track goes. 1) You get very tuned in to noticing when the cars start to over-rotate because when sat in front of a screen its the main thing your relying on to drive the car (kick in the steering is to late). 2) Concentration as in for trying to drive consistently.

[RobM77]

Personally I've learnt a huge amount from simulators, both in terms of setup and driving. Real testing will always be better, but I'm on a limited budget, so can't afford to drive my car as much as I'd like to.

The difficulty with simulators is learning to drive with different senses than you'd use in a real car; but once you've done that, modern simulators are very close to the real thing imho. I've also found that it's very handy to learn to drive with different senses than you're used to, as it makes you adaptable in your driving.

[BertBert]

I must admit that I have wondered how long it takes to learn to drive in a sim. Or more specifically, how long it would take me. I know that I am completely crap at computer driving games so it's no surprise that I didn't get on with simulators.

Maybe I'll get rfactor set up with a force feeback wheel and see if I can learn to drive with sight and dodgy wheel feedback alone.

Bert

[Erich Stahler]

I spent an hour on the Race Hub simulator at Brands Hatch memorising the Indy circuit and thought it was very useful as cheap way of getting more seat time in.
Looked like it was infinitely configurable, suspension, types of tyres, wear rate etc.
Sufficient resistance/force feed to steering wheel and body pitch and roll to give quite a bit of realism, not sure how far off the mark it would be to pro simulators, but definitely worth it.

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

I must admit that I have wondered how long it takes to learn to drive in a sim. Or more specifically, how long it would take me. I know that I am completely crap at computer driving games so it's no surprise that I didn't get on with simulators.

Maybe I'll get rfactor set up with a force feeback wheel and see if I can learn to drive with sight and dodgy wheel feedback alone.

Bert

If you do, then I think it's best to start with a car that has a high optimum slip angle during cornering; that way it'll be more visually obvious what's going on. I occasionally take part in Pistonheads hot lap challenges with 'Assetto Corsa' (which most people prefer to RFactor and iRacing in terms of realism, me included) and when we used the Lotus 49 on a twisty track I won by quite a margin, but when we've used modern slick shod cars (bizarrely like I'm used to racing in real life), I'm way off the pace. AC has an online lap time tracker so you can compare yourself with hundreds if not thousands of others, and it's the same story for me on that.

So yes, I'm faster in real life and yes, the steering feedback is rubbish, but everything else is so good these days that I think you can learn quite a bit.

Incidentally, most sims these days will output data logging, so you can get valuable practise with that side of racing too by analysing your laps.

[BertBert]

What I want to simulate is FF2000!

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

What I want to simulate is FF2000!

I used to race those As above, in sims I'd start with older higher slip angle cars and then work towards something slicks and wings like the FF2000, which is going to feel much more inert and remote in a sim without the feel of the tiny slip angles building underneath you. I'd highly recommend starting with the Lotus 49 in Assetto Corsa, or the Formula Ford 1600 in NetKar, before moving on to something with smaller optimum slip angles, like the FF1800 in NK or the 312T in AC.

What I do to help my real life racing (slicks and wings single seaters) is to do basic driving practise in the aforementioned higher slip angle cars (driving's driving, after all!), and then occasionally turn to a FF2000 style car if I want to explore different lines, setup options, or tune in to the power/grip ratio and general approach of that sort of car. You may wish to try 'NetKar' - Assetto Corsa's fore-runner, which had a number of different single seaters, one of which is close to a FF2000 if I remember rightly.

Don't under-estimate how much your driving will improve by just driving though, it doesn't really matter what it is. For those of us who aren't testing twice a week in real life, it really helps to keep your hand in by driving other things, whether it's karting, track days in a road car or sims.

One final thing I should say is that some people never really do get comfortable with driving on a sim without real life feedback. It's a definite skill, that's for sure, and one different people adapt to differently. It works the other way round too - I know people who are quick in sims but not really up to much in real life, although I confess it's more rare that way round, because (if you we forget about fear and tolerance of g force etc) real life is considerably easier due to the amount of feedback you get. So if you don't really get on with it, don't worry about it, just go karting instead

[BertBert]

Yes, my suspicion is that it's not for me, but we'll try and see. The FF2000 has big slip angles when I drive it, certainly waaaaaay more so than the Radicals previously! Just have to go testing twice a week!

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

Yes, my suspicion is that it's not for me, but we'll try and see. The FF2000 has big slip angles when I drive it, certainly waaaaaay more so than the Radicals previously! Just have to go testing twice a week!

Ah... a true FF2000 may be different to the ones I've tried. What I was racing were actually 750MC "Formula 4" spec cars, which were Formula Ford Zetecs with aero and F3 slicks. Sure, they moved around when driven quickly, but certainly nowhere near as much as, for example, a Formula Ford with no aero on ACB10s or a historic racer. The optimum slip angle for a modern slick, such as the F3 slicks we used to use (or I suspect on your Radical), is just about big enough to be visually apparent when you're on the limit (if you know what you're looking for), but not really big enough for a sim racer (or at least me on a sim!) to control the interim stages up to that point with purely visual feedback and any realistic repeatability. For that sort of immersive experience and fine control I find that I need to drive something with a much bigger optimum slip angle. In NetKar, the FF1600 was my favourite car without any doubt at all - I could (and did!) spend hours and hours driving that around empty tracks purely for fun, preferably with lots of rain!

I guess you have a decent wheel with three pedals and a gearstick etc and a fair size of monitor (or preferably multiple monitors)? If not, then there are a few well equipped sim racing centres around the country that you can visit.

You may be right though, it might just not be for you. More excuses to go testing

[NJH]

Bert I have never been a games geek so when I started driving on the computer I was even more rubbish than when I started driving my real race car. Thing is its easy and essentially cost free to do an hour a night and with that frequency of practice you improve really quickly.

Use a really big monitor to help with the visual cues, I have a 27" one and found this made a big difference. I don't think there is much difference between the value of the various sims for this sort of task but I used to find LFS did more things more close to what is useful for real car driving (slides are to big though) but such a shame they never really developed it.

Rob thanks for your pointers, you raise a point which was at the heart of the thread I started recently about seat time in other cars, looks like my race car will be off the road for a couple of months so its simply either do no track driving over that period or drive my road car. Cross trainer and indoor karting also on my winter list.

[RobM77]

Thanks for your thoughts NJH. As well as a keen racer I'm also a computer geek, so it's good to hear your views. I agree with the monitors. My setup is three 24" widescreens (I sit a metre away, so it fills a good part of my vision) and I have a good steering wheel, three pedals and a standard h pattern gearshift. I've recently upgraded the brake spring to be closer to real life pressure, which is so I can practise left foot braking as my new racing car is a sequential gearbox and I want to have a foot on each pedal, which is not something I'm used to.

[BertBert]

I won't be going quite that far in terms of IT kit, but what wheel, pedals and gearshift do you have Rob?

There was a Tatuus Renault out at Silverstone on Sunday, not yours presumably?

BErt

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

I won't be going quite that far in terms of IT kit, but what wheel, pedals and gearshift do you have Rob?

There was a Tatuus Renault out at Silverstone on Sunday, not yours presumably?

BErt

Sadly not, no, my Formula Renault is being rebuilt as we speak ready for next season. The car in the Walter Hayes open race was Cian Carey. I hope to be there next year though if they do another open single seater race, money permitting.

In answer to your question, I have a Logitech G27, which is a good quality amateur wheel and pedals set. Professional level sets are available (‘load cells’ etc), but they’re very expensive, and to approach realistic levels of weighting they need to be hard mounted, which is getting a bit beyond my aspirations! I’d certainly recommend a Logitech wheel and pedal set; this is my second (in 15 years!) and they’re very good value for money and stand up to heavy use well; I only upgraded because I wanted a clutch, a proper gearshift and enough rotation for a realistic amount of lock (older wheels didn’t have much lock, but the newer ones like the G27 go up to 900 degrees, or even more). I’ve modified the brake spring to a ‘GT Eye’ spring, available on E-Bay, which has increased weighting to a more realistic level.

I love my setup, but yes, it’s expensive if you’re new to it and not sure how you’ll get on. I’d recommend starting with whatever PC you have if possible (i.e. if it has reasonable graphics power) and perhaps a secondhand wheel and pedals, or even better, trying sim racing at one of the centres around the UK. If you get on with it, then the chaps over on the games forum (or I) can advise further, but essentially I’d highly recommend a good spec gaming PC, a good graphics card that’ll cope with multiple monitors and three fast response time monitors with thin bezels to place next to each other. Being surrounded by motion and being able to look into corners is wonderful, and I wouldn’t want any less now – plus it’s fantastic for work!

The only downside to PC sim racing is people like me (racers who happen to be geeks) can’t keep the industry going alone, so they have to aim products at the gamer market as well. Thankfully, for most true sims this just involves having optional stability control modes available to make the cars easier to drive, but the cars provided do suffer too, being mainly road cars. However, Assetto Corsa does have a Lotus 49, Lotus 98T, Lotus T125, Ferrari 312 and a Tatuus Formula Arbarth. The products are also worldwide, so UK tracks are thin on the ground. Assetto Corsa currently just has Silverstone (GP, Nat & Int) as an official laser scanned product, but third party versions of other tracks are available for download – I have Goodwood for example and it’s pretty accurate.

Finally, do note the difference between a simulation (Assetto Corsa, RFactor, NetKar, iRacing) and a game (Gran Turismo, Forza etc). The latter claim to be realistic, but aren’t at all and as far as I know don’t even model suspension properly – if you’re used to real cars then they’re very confusing at times!

[BertBert]

Thanks for the detailed info on kit and setup, I'll havr a look. Just had to rebuild a PC with new MB etc, so should be man-enough.

The allcomers open wheel was a bit dull for me as there was noone of the right pace to race with. Had a fabulous weekend though with the HSCC FF2000 race, just beginning to get to grips with it. Qualified third in a damp, finished 6th with a dry race. Best finish yet in the single seater.

Strangely I found an extra second a lap in the allcomers. Wish I'd found that the day before

Bert