Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?
Discussion
I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.
Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
bucksmanuk said:
I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.
Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
Completely agree. I know it sounds like sour grapes, given we have benefitted from it personally, but Goodwood has a lot to answer for in turning a club sport into something akin to Henley, Ascot etc. There is a difference between outright cheating and liberal interpretation of (as you say, slightly shonky rules) though - neither of which are great.Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
There was always an element of ‘pushing (and breaking) the boundaries’, but we now live in a world where it is the trendy thing to do for monied people who quite often have very little interest in the cars, pay teams to run them etc. To an extent, that is fair enough, but widespread misdeclaration of engine capacities, use of roller rockers, refusal to stay in parc ferme because they know they’ll be found put, and, in one notable case, extensive use of an F1 wind tunnel at unbelievable cost, what do you do? The death of the club racer has been often announced, but in terms of historics, I think it is very close. So much damage now to cars where panels are unavailable or very expensive (£600 for a 100e wing, if you can find one) and a ‘win at all cost’ attitude - I’ve deliberately sacrificed good positions to avoid BTCC style contact/rubbing - both because I don’t want it, and also because I can’t afford it.
But of course, those people can go back to their normal lives and say ‘I ‘won’ (inverted commas deliberate) at circuit X. My car, and me, are no slower than we were 20 years ago, but *somehow* my identical (or even better) lap time now puts me at the back, rather than the front. I’ve no inclination or the wallet to push/break boundaries, and to be honest I’d prefer a proper race whether it is at the back or the front, but some form of assurance of a level playing field would keep me in it, otherwise I’m off to historic karting (which I know has its own problems).
By the way, in terms of travel, we live in Carlisle! Was always sad to see lower entries for Croft etc., if we make the effort to get to Brands, the reverse should apply.
bucksmanuk said:
I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.
Great to get another informed point of view, agreed with points made including Championships vs Series.Living in North Yorkshire most circuits are leagues away (aside from Croft, Oulton/Cadwell being similar distances), not a lot of use when as stated a few of the series mostly choose to race at circuits down South.
I feel there is an appetite for a pre-60s touring car series owing to the amount of cars that manage to turn up every other year for the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood, however possibly with some more sensible/watertight regulations and some more-controlled costs. I can see why people can't be bothered though, as an example for my car to race at an HRDC round i'd have to pay some exorbitant annual membership fee to the HRDC (£250 or £500, f
king stupid either way) and then pay £600-or-so for a practice/45 minute race session at somewhere like Lydden Hill? Add in the mandatory fresh set of tyres required after a visit to Lydden/travelling expenses of getting all the way down there, and ~£1500 to race at a circuit that IMO is fking boring means my car stays in the garage 
Honestly unsure what would help entice owner/drivers club racers back out to the circuit, whether it be:
- differently-written technical regulations
- cheaper barrier costs (membership, race fees etc.)
- visiting better circuits (Oulton Park, Cadwell Park, Anglesey etc?)
It's a shame as it's something I love, and seeing grids of cars drop from 20+ spread across all classes to in some instances series struggling to scrape a grid of 10 cars together is depressing
IMHO – or what it’s worth
Technical regulations written a lot better would improve matters.
How do you stop someone spending £60K on a Mk2 Golf championship?
Why does a front row Mini Miglia cost £100K+ to build?
Real case
When the regulations state “an OEM camshaft must be used”…. this really opens Pandora’s box. Yet the regs show……
1. There is no part number stated for what is an OEM camshaft.
2. There are no lift/duration numbers given.
3. There is no drawing to refer to.
4. There are no tolerances apparent, although this could be accomplished by stating absolute maximum values for (2)
Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?
I also think that the championship organisers with the motor racing clubs have to stand up and be counted. Brands Hatch costs £10K/day to run – every single day - whether racing or track days occur or not. It’s thought the most profitable events they do are track days. There is a suspicion that track days are now subsiding racing.
BUT – if there aren’t any spectators in the stands who have paid their £15 to be there, compared to let’s say 5,000 people for a decent clubbie at £12 each- that makes a massive difference to the bottom line for a meeting. Even if half of them were children getting in for free, that’s still £30K in gate money.
BUT - people aren’t going to turn up to see races/ championships that are dull to watch. 3 years ago, I watched 4 LMP cars go round Brands Hatch for an hour – strewth! Luckily it coincided with my lunchtime, so I missed most of it…. There are some championships that I just won’t watch as its always so very, very dull. No names obviously…
Technical regulations written a lot better would improve matters.
How do you stop someone spending £60K on a Mk2 Golf championship?
Why does a front row Mini Miglia cost £100K+ to build?
Real case
When the regulations state “an OEM camshaft must be used”…. this really opens Pandora’s box. Yet the regs show……
1. There is no part number stated for what is an OEM camshaft.
2. There are no lift/duration numbers given.
3. There is no drawing to refer to.
4. There are no tolerances apparent, although this could be accomplished by stating absolute maximum values for (2)
Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?
I also think that the championship organisers with the motor racing clubs have to stand up and be counted. Brands Hatch costs £10K/day to run – every single day - whether racing or track days occur or not. It’s thought the most profitable events they do are track days. There is a suspicion that track days are now subsiding racing.
BUT – if there aren’t any spectators in the stands who have paid their £15 to be there, compared to let’s say 5,000 people for a decent clubbie at £12 each- that makes a massive difference to the bottom line for a meeting. Even if half of them were children getting in for free, that’s still £30K in gate money.
BUT - people aren’t going to turn up to see races/ championships that are dull to watch. 3 years ago, I watched 4 LMP cars go round Brands Hatch for an hour – strewth! Luckily it coincided with my lunchtime, so I missed most of it…. There are some championships that I just won’t watch as its always so very, very dull. No names obviously…
Chunkychucky said:
bucksmanuk said:
I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.
Great to get another informed point of view, agreed with points made including Championships vs Series.Living in North Yorkshire most circuits are leagues away (aside from Croft, Oulton/Cadwell being similar distances), not a lot of use when as stated a few of the series mostly choose to race at circuits down South.
I feel there is an appetite for a pre-60s touring car series owing to the amount of cars that manage to turn up every other year for the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood, however possibly with some more sensible/watertight regulations and some more-controlled costs. I can see why people can't be bothered though, as an example for my car to race at an HRDC round i'd have to pay some exorbitant annual membership fee to the HRDC (£250 or £500, f
king stupid either way) and then pay £600-or-so for a practice/45 minute race session at somewhere like Lydden Hill? Add in the mandatory fresh set of tyres required after a visit to Lydden/travelling expenses of getting all the way down there, and ~£1500 to race at a circuit that IMO is fking boring means my car stays in the garage Honestly unsure what would help entice owner/drivers club racers back out to the circuit, whether it be:
- differently-written technical regulations
- cheaper barrier costs (membership, race fees etc.)
- visiting better circuits (Oulton Park, Cadwell Park, Anglesey etc?)
It's a shame as it's something I love, and seeing grids of cars drop from 20+ spread across all classes to in some instances series struggling to scrape a grid of 10 cars together is depressing
The classic sports & saloons fits most anything in to a class. Club membership and a guest entry would be about £350. Reckon you’ll struggle to race for less.
bucksmanuk said:
I look after 3 championships as an eligibility scrutineer.
Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
Are there races now that require engines to be sealed before competing? Cars of all descriptions are sadly not competing anymore. The number of championships which are registering smaller grids gets increasingly numerous. I was talking to a championship coordinator at Snetterton 2 weeks ago. He has no idea as to what the main reason is, but it’s a long list of probables.
Fear of oncoming recession
Rising prices for competing
Championships which travel around too much, Cadwell is a long way for a competitor based in Hastings.
Some cars are now getting valuable, and people are now realising they have £50K sat in the workshop in spare projects rather than £8K worth of piles of bits and pieces.
Old cars are getting valuable and new cars are complicated. Think MGB compared to a new Mini.
General opinion from the young is that its expensive (it is) and you need a lot of specialist skills (you do).
I also inspect and seal engines for a serious entrant and an historic racer. He has £100K MGBs for sale. I seal other engines for a guy who has people chucking £25K at him, for 6 weeks work to become 3 weeks for fixing up his crunched historic car for the next race.
There is considerable discussion as to whether series or championships are the way to go. Personally, I think championships are better.
In general, I think a lot more thought has to be given to the regulations to make them watertight, and to actively discourage the spending of money. Many of them are badly written with conflicting do’s and don’ts on differing pages. Many are almost impossible to enforce as well. So, someone with a not-that-imaginative mind, but a fat wallet can walk right through them.
Inconel exhausts? Make the rules say magnetic materials only - Sorted!
emicen said:
If anyone from the classics realm is interested in getting their cars out probably as cheaply as possible, the Scottish Motor Racing Club are at Cadwell on the 16th July.
The classic sports & saloons fits most anything in to a class. Club membership and a guest entry would be about £350. Reckon you’ll struggle to race for less.
Good to know, thanks for the tip - Cadwell Park too... The classic sports & saloons fits most anything in to a class. Club membership and a guest entry would be about £350. Reckon you’ll struggle to race for less.
It isn't quite all doom and gloom however is it?
Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
bucksmanuk said:
IMHO – or what it’s worth
Technical regulations written a lot better would improve matters.
How do you stop someone spending £60K on a Mk2 Golf championship?
Why does a front row Mini Miglia cost £100K+ to build?
Real case
When the regulations state “an OEM camshaft must be used”…. this really opens Pandora’s box. Yet the regs show……
1. There is no part number stated for what is an OEM camshaft.
2. There are no lift/duration numbers given.
3. There is no drawing to refer to.
4. There are no tolerances apparent, although this could be accomplished by stating absolute maximum values for (2)
Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?
I also think that the championship organisers with the motor racing clubs have to stand up and be counted. Brands Hatch costs £10K/day to run – every single day - whether racing or track days occur or not. It’s thought the most profitable events they do are track days. There is a suspicion that track days are now subsiding racing.
BUT – if there aren’t any spectators in the stands who have paid their £15 to be there, compared to let’s say 5,000 people for a decent clubbie at £12 each- that makes a massive difference to the bottom line for a meeting. Even if half of them were children getting in for free, that’s still £30K in gate money.
BUT - people aren’t going to turn up to see races/ championships that are dull to watch. 3 years ago, I watched 4 LMP cars go round Brands Hatch for an hour – strewth! Luckily it coincided with my lunchtime, so I missed most of it…. There are some championships that I just won’t watch as its always so very, very dull. No names obviously…
All great points, and had to chuckle at the comment about 4 LMP cars, I had the pleasure of watching a race for GT40s (on the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit of all places) in October last year - 5 cars on the grid.... After the first couple of laps it was deathly boring watching the front 2 do battle, and the remaining 3 cars pottering about on their own.Technical regulations written a lot better would improve matters.
How do you stop someone spending £60K on a Mk2 Golf championship?
Why does a front row Mini Miglia cost £100K+ to build?
Real case
When the regulations state “an OEM camshaft must be used”…. this really opens Pandora’s box. Yet the regs show……
1. There is no part number stated for what is an OEM camshaft.
2. There are no lift/duration numbers given.
3. There is no drawing to refer to.
4. There are no tolerances apparent, although this could be accomplished by stating absolute maximum values for (2)
Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?
I also think that the championship organisers with the motor racing clubs have to stand up and be counted. Brands Hatch costs £10K/day to run – every single day - whether racing or track days occur or not. It’s thought the most profitable events they do are track days. There is a suspicion that track days are now subsiding racing.
BUT – if there aren’t any spectators in the stands who have paid their £15 to be there, compared to let’s say 5,000 people for a decent clubbie at £12 each- that makes a massive difference to the bottom line for a meeting. Even if half of them were children getting in for free, that’s still £30K in gate money.
BUT - people aren’t going to turn up to see races/ championships that are dull to watch. 3 years ago, I watched 4 LMP cars go round Brands Hatch for an hour – strewth! Luckily it coincided with my lunchtime, so I missed most of it…. There are some championships that I just won’t watch as its always so very, very dull. No names obviously…
"Maybe people have to accept that their lap times will increase and use rock hard rubber that lasts for 4 meetings or some such…?" - this fragment intrigued me, as i'd happily take a cut in costs/outright laptime if it resulted in closer-matched cars, and thus better racing. I think if the racing itself is good and the cars are reasonably interesting, then this is what people want to watch - even a one-make McLaren F1 race would be boring if there were only 3 cars on the grid. It's been noticeable over the past few years how spectators at historic club meetings seem to have dwindled over the past 10/15 years, there used to be a fair crowd stood on the banks spectating, however recently it's only been at bigger historic meetings (Silverstone Classic, Goodwood Revival etc.) that this has happened.
snowen250 said:
It isn't quite all doom and gloom however is it?
Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
CTCRC is another option i'd been considering (aside from HRDC only viable option for a historic touring car), slightly annoyed the fact you have to sticker bomb your car with all their series sponsors as it hardly looks period, but I suppose a small price to pay for recent racing with reasonably-supported grids. Other annoyance was that as I wanted to share the car with my father, whichever driver did the second race would default to having to start from the back of the grid, whereas same drivers get to start from their finishing position in Race 1...bit odd!Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
snowen250 said:
It isn't quite all doom and gloom however is it?
Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
I was at Donington Park on Sunday watching/scrutineering the Equipe GTS races. It was excellent.Equipe GTS are managing to fill grids at every meeting, and the club is a joy to race with. Excellent standards and it doesn't seem like people are spending a fortune. Certainly my mate and I with his little Sprite aren't. And we have fun (him in it, me watching)
The CSCC is doing well, as is the CTCRC. Yes, some series are struggling, AMOC and at times HRDC. But these are series that appeal to, in my opinion, fewer eligible cars.
It is motorsport, people will always spend big to win, sadly. If you want to avoid this, go do the C1 cup, KA series by MSVR or the BRSCC Mazda series. But be quick....these series are often hugely over subscribed. As is the BRSCC Modified Ford Series. Sponsored by my firm, so some bias here!
I understand the frustration around circuits, i live very close to Brands so am somewhat spoiled, but you cant blame series for not visiting Prembrey, Anglesey etc if entries are traditionally lower there?
Simon
57 cars at the meeting, and as far as I am aware only one of them received any damage. A blue Mini has a boot that’s about 3 inches shorter than it used to be.
Loads of races, everyone went out 4 times (I think). A fair variety of cars, although lots of MGBs!
What got me was very little damage – except as above, but also clean driving, safety car hardly went out at all, everyone off the grid sharpish, no bumping off each other.
I suddenly realised why it’s so popular, what can be done to a historic MGB has probably been done now, so once the car has reached its top potential, how much faster is it actually going to go?
A lot of trust in your fellow competitors to not drive like knobs, and everyone goes home ready to race another day.
The last race was fun - Some good scraps through the field, and the red/white Healey (91 Mark Holme) chasing down the green TVR was great to watch. That Healey sang for its supper on Sunday…..
Chunkychucky said:
Other annoyance was that as I wanted to share the car with my father, whichever driver did the second race would default to having to start from the back of the grid, whereas same drivers get to start from their finishing position in Race 1...bit odd!
That’s really not odd in the slightest. In fact, I would reckon the majority of club race series in the UK, running 2 races, will have start positions for Race 2 defined by finish position from Race 1.Chunkychucky said:
I feel there is an appetite for a pre-60s touring car series owing to the amount of cars that manage to turn up every other year for the St Mary's Trophy @ Goodwood, however possibly with some more sensible/watertight regulations and some more-controlled costs. I can see why people can't be bothered though, as an example for my car to race at an HRDC round i'd have to pay some exorbitant annual membership fee to the HRDC (£250 or £500, fking stupid either way) and then pay £600-or-so for a practice/45 minute race session at somewhere like Lydden Hill? Add in the mandatory fresh set of tyres required after a visit to Lydden/travelling expenses of getting all the way down there, and ~£1500 to race at a circuit that IMO is fking boring means my car stays in the garage
It's a shame as it's something I love, and seeing grids of cars drop from 20+ spread across all classes to in some instances series struggling to scrape a grid of 10 cars together is depressing
As a quick question, where do you think the price points should be? Not a criticism, just interested to know.king stupid either way) and then pay £600-or-so for a practice/45 minute race session at somewhere like Lydden Hill? Add in the mandatory fresh set of tyres required after a visit to Lydden/travelling expenses of getting all the way down there, and ~£1500 to race at a circuit that IMO is fking boring means my car stays in the garage It's a shame as it's something I love, and seeing grids of cars drop from 20+ spread across all classes to in some instances series struggling to scrape a grid of 10 cars together is depressing
You can look online, but HRDC membership is not too high (£250), plus every other series you have to be a member or something similar (CTCRC you have an annual membership of £99, plus you also have to be a BARC member £145, so same cost as HRDC, HSCC is £210 and MRL is £350), otherwise you can pay a one off race weekend fee (£75 for HRDC and £55 for CTCRC).
HRDC is £695 for a Gerry Marshall event & I don't think that's bad, as you get a 25 minute practice session and a 45 minute race (for Gerry Marshall Trophy), so £9.93 a minute for racing.
CTCRC is £390 for 15 minute practice session and two 15 minute races (£8.67 a minute).
I know Motor Racing Legends, HSCC and others can cost more, but it does really depend on the championship you're competing in and sometimes the circuits too. The CTCRC plan a championship and go to all the main circuits, hiring them out and have to ensure they fill all the grids (which is why some series like Blue Oval, Jaguar Challenge and Trucks) are on the same bill, whereas HRDC is a series, so picks up grid slots of other series and can keep costs lower and also pick and choose their venues - both HRDC and CTCRC got to Lydden and both are very well supported, as it is a cracking venue and track.
CTCRC cater for pre '66, but there are a lot of earlier cars out and one of the reasons the HRDC was founded was to cater for the pre '60s cars, as Goodwood alternates the St Mary's Trophy every year, so there are a lot of cars out there that can't race each year.
When I started with the CTCRC we had Post Historics pre '74s and had full grids, but Classic Group 1 has taken over, which obviously I have played a part in over the years, but to the detriment of my cars own performance!!
Do you know how much it is to enter Goodwood Members' Meeting and Goodwood Revival? Not sure about the Revival, but MM you need to be a GRRC Member (£245), plus the entry fee on top andf the Revival is more than the MM.
CTCRC and HRDC are great clubs/championships in their own rights and have plus and minus points - luckily I race with both and also with a couple of other series and you might have read, both HRDC and CTCRC are bucking grid trends, with them being up, whereas most other series are very down this year.
Unfortunately motor racing has got exepnsive, very expensvie!!
Gregor Marshall said:
As a quick question, where do you think the price points should be? Not a criticism, just interested to know.
You can look online, but HRDC membership is not too high (£250), plus every other series you have to be a member or something similar (CTCRC you have an annual membership of £99, plus you also have to be a BARC member £145, so same cost as HRDC, HSCC is £210 and MRL is £350), otherwise you can pay a one off race weekend fee (£75 for HRDC and £55 for CTCRC).
HRDC is £695 for a Gerry Marshall event & I don't think that's bad, as you get a 25 minute practice session and a 45 minute race (for Gerry Marshall Trophy), so £9.93 a minute for racing.
CTCRC is £390 for 15 minute practice session and two 15 minute races (£8.67 a minute).
I know Motor Racing Legends, HSCC and others can cost more, but it does really depend on the championship you're competing in and sometimes the circuits too. The CTCRC plan a championship and go to all the main circuits, hiring them out and have to ensure they fill all the grids (which is why some series like Blue Oval, Jaguar Challenge and Trucks) are on the same bill, whereas HRDC is a series, so picks up grid slots of other series and can keep costs lower and also pick and choose their venues - both HRDC and CTCRC got to Lydden and both are very well supported, as it is a cracking venue and track.
CTCRC cater for pre '66, but there are a lot of earlier cars out and one of the reasons the HRDC was founded was to cater for the pre '60s cars, as Goodwood alternates the St Mary's Trophy every year, so there are a lot of cars out there that can't race each year.
When I started with the CTCRC we had Post Historics pre '74s and had full grids, but Classic Group 1 has taken over, which obviously I have played a part in over the years, but to the detriment of my cars own performance!!
Do you know how much it is to enter Goodwood Members' Meeting and Goodwood Revival? Not sure about the Revival, but MM you need to be a GRRC Member (£245), plus the entry fee on top andf the Revival is more than the MM.
CTCRC and HRDC are great clubs/championships in their own rights and have plus and minus points - luckily I race with both and also with a couple of other series and you might have read, both HRDC and CTCRC are bucking grid trends, with them being up, whereas most other series are very down this year.
Unfortunately motor racing has got exepnsive, very expensvie!!
I don’t know of things have changed, but for the Revival (done it 5 times, the last in 2008), the entry was free. Of course, with all the various accoutrements required to make an effort, it was actually the most expensive free entry ever You can look online, but HRDC membership is not too high (£250), plus every other series you have to be a member or something similar (CTCRC you have an annual membership of £99, plus you also have to be a BARC member £145, so same cost as HRDC, HSCC is £210 and MRL is £350), otherwise you can pay a one off race weekend fee (£75 for HRDC and £55 for CTCRC).
HRDC is £695 for a Gerry Marshall event & I don't think that's bad, as you get a 25 minute practice session and a 45 minute race (for Gerry Marshall Trophy), so £9.93 a minute for racing.
CTCRC is £390 for 15 minute practice session and two 15 minute races (£8.67 a minute).
I know Motor Racing Legends, HSCC and others can cost more, but it does really depend on the championship you're competing in and sometimes the circuits too. The CTCRC plan a championship and go to all the main circuits, hiring them out and have to ensure they fill all the grids (which is why some series like Blue Oval, Jaguar Challenge and Trucks) are on the same bill, whereas HRDC is a series, so picks up grid slots of other series and can keep costs lower and also pick and choose their venues - both HRDC and CTCRC got to Lydden and both are very well supported, as it is a cracking venue and track.
CTCRC cater for pre '66, but there are a lot of earlier cars out and one of the reasons the HRDC was founded was to cater for the pre '60s cars, as Goodwood alternates the St Mary's Trophy every year, so there are a lot of cars out there that can't race each year.
When I started with the CTCRC we had Post Historics pre '74s and had full grids, but Classic Group 1 has taken over, which obviously I have played a part in over the years, but to the detriment of my cars own performance!!
Do you know how much it is to enter Goodwood Members' Meeting and Goodwood Revival? Not sure about the Revival, but MM you need to be a GRRC Member (£245), plus the entry fee on top andf the Revival is more than the MM.
CTCRC and HRDC are great clubs/championships in their own rights and have plus and minus points - luckily I race with both and also with a couple of other series and you might have read, both HRDC and CTCRC are bucking grid trends, with them being up, whereas most other series are very down this year.
Unfortunately motor racing has got exepnsive, very expensvie!!
Gregor Marshall said:
As a quick question, where do you think the price points should be? Not a criticism, just interested to know.
I feel as though the CTCRC is probably most in-keeping with my budget/price point, and in all honesty probably the series i'll compete in firstly to ensure my car lasts their shorter race distances before entering any HRDC events.With Thurgood's connections and skills for marketing, why not run the HRDC series as championships? Even their entry numbers have been dropping over the past few years, for example HRDC Touring Greats used to be able to field a grid of 15-20 1950s touring cars at most meetings, now from a look at their recent results it appears as though Touring Greats is encapsulating entries from both 50s/60s on the same grids, yet not managing to get any more entries... Would this be solved by turning the HRDC races in to a series/championship? I personally would be more inclined to compete in all their rounds, however in all honesty there are only a couple of their tracks that I would want to race my car around. Lydden Hill hasn't ever appeared on the list of tracks I want to drive, and although Thruxton is a great circuit i'd just be sat there with my right foot welded to the bulkhead for 90% of the lap waiting for my engine to go BANG.
HSCC/HRSR appeals owing to the points/championship aspect, the circuits they visit, and the good close-racing that I have witnessed from that crowd over the past 20 years, but then again the costs of sourcing/prepping fibreglass panels and making the car fit their regulations comes in to it. Would be nice if Appendix K regulations had been around in 1958, but hey ho!
ChevronB19 said:
I don’t know of things have changed, but for the Revival (done it 5 times, the last in 2008), the entry was free. Of course, with all the various accoutrements required to make an effort, it was actually the most expensive free entry ever
It's not free any more from my understanding and SpeedWeek and the Members' Meeting certainly aren't and you're right, with all the extra costs it ends up a very expensive weekend, but a great event to be part of.Chunkychucky said:
I feel as though the CTCRC is probably most in-keeping with my budget/price point, and in all honesty probably the series i'll compete in firstly to ensure my car lasts their shorter race distances before entering any HRDC events.
With Thurgood's connections and skills for marketing, why not run the HRDC series as championships? Even their entry numbers have been dropping over the past few years, for example HRDC Touring Greats used to be able to field a grid of 15-20 1950s touring cars at most meetings, now from a look at their recent results it appears as though Touring Greats is encapsulating entries from both 50s/60s on the same grids, yet not managing to get any more entries... Would this be solved by turning the HRDC races in to a series/championship? I personally would be more inclined to compete in all their rounds, however in all honesty there are only a couple of their tracks that I would want to race my car around. Lydden Hill hasn't ever appeared on the list of tracks I want to drive, and although Thruxton is a great circuit i'd just be sat there with my right foot welded to the bulkhead for 90% of the lap waiting for my engine to go BANG.
I started with the CTCRC and would certainly recommend them, really friendly bunch of people, with good racing and very well organised and have been around since the '70s when still the CSCC (if changed around 2000).With Thurgood's connections and skills for marketing, why not run the HRDC series as championships? Even their entry numbers have been dropping over the past few years, for example HRDC Touring Greats used to be able to field a grid of 15-20 1950s touring cars at most meetings, now from a look at their recent results it appears as though Touring Greats is encapsulating entries from both 50s/60s on the same grids, yet not managing to get any more entries... Would this be solved by turning the HRDC races in to a series/championship? I personally would be more inclined to compete in all their rounds, however in all honesty there are only a couple of their tracks that I would want to race my car around. Lydden Hill hasn't ever appeared on the list of tracks I want to drive, and although Thruxton is a great circuit i'd just be sat there with my right foot welded to the bulkhead for 90% of the lap waiting for my engine to go BANG.
Some people prefer the shorter races over 2 days, whilst some prefer a longer race over 1 day, just really your preference and if the car is reliable. I also meant to add in my original post, the HRDC races are generally two driver, so that can help with budget and add an extra element of competition.
I cannot speak for Julius, but there are more risks involved with running a championship than a series. Every championship is struggling for numbers (the CTCRC either mix Group 1 with pre '93 or pre '66) and yes the HRDC does mix some grids too.
A club like the CTCRC have to hire a track for a day/weekend and then ensure they have a minimum number of races/grids, with particular grid sizes to ensure they don't lose money. A series of races run by someone like the HRDC, buys a race/grid from a club and only has the exposure of that one (or however many grids they buy), so a lot less risk and less stress. Remember Julius set up Top Hat, Cloth Cap, etc, been there and done that and it might not be what he wants to do now.
Unfortunately some of these cars have got very expensive and people aren't committing to racing them, but clubs like CTCRC and HRDC are trying their best and even helping out other series buying races/grids from other clubs/championship organisers. I'm certainly no expert in it and don't know the intricate details, but that's basically it and you will see in last week’s Autosport there is an article about the surge in 1970s racing - Julius and I got 29 cars for our first races, but I have a list of 101 eligible cars that have raced in the last 5 years, so their care cars out there, it's just attracting them and hopefully with the HRDC experience and our marketing we can attract more.
I personally don't think forming a championship would make any difference for this type of racing, most are out to enjoy it and socialise and at the end of the day it's not just winning (of course it is really, but not for everyone!!). The CTCRC has introduce championship prize money and I think that has helped them a little, but it's not the be all and end all for the majority of their drivers.
Everyone has favourite tracks and bucket list tracks and all I can say is Lydden Hill has been supported by both CTCRC and HRDC over the years, as it is such a friendly place and produces great racing. Thruxton was one of my late Dad's favourite tracks and it really sorts the men out from the boys, and you can ask any racing driver that about Thruxton.
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