Brake fade - how to combat it?
Discussion
Since getting my Sports 2000 this year season I've been sufferring horrendous brake fade. What are the best ways to resolve this?
Ideally I don't want to have to go easier on the brakes as a lot of my passing opportunities have come under braking, however it's gotten to the point now where I have no confidence in them and that I'm going to end up in the gravel trap.
What are your experiences of the different pads/discs out there? Any recommendations for really harsh braking/lots of use?
Ideally I don't want to have to go easier on the brakes as a lot of my passing opportunities have come under braking, however it's gotten to the point now where I have no confidence in them and that I'm going to end up in the gravel trap.
What are your experiences of the different pads/discs out there? Any recommendations for really harsh braking/lots of use?
You're sure you don't need to upgrade brake fluid first? I'm guessing Sports 2000 is pretty lightweight - my race Se7en (bike engined therefore lightweight admittedly) uses standard non-vented Cortina discs and calipers - I use Super Blue Racing fluid, change it maybe once a year if I can be bothered and have never had fade...
Do you know how hot the brakes are getting? Is it within the temperature range of your pads? Brake fade can be caused by gas from the pads building up between the pads/disc, you can address it by getting grooved discs and/or by using pads with a higher temperature rating, or cool it down by improving the ram air cooling or fitting bigger rotors. Brake fade can also be cause by the callipers flexing, or by the fluid starting to boil. Worn pads increase the heat conducted into the fluid so simply fitting new pads may help a little. Check the condition of the fluid when you bleed the brakes, if it comes out looking like treacle you know it's been cooked; if it looks similar to new fluid you can probably assume it hasn't been.
Agreed with everything GreenV8S says...
If you're confident in the fluid then I suggest you get some brake temperature strips (Thieves sell them, not expensive) - see what temperature your brakes are getting up to then uprate pads accordingly, and as GreenV8S says then either try grooved discs or (without knowing what brakes are on your car) try vented discs. After that you're into bigger brakes and more expense...
If you're confident in the fluid then I suggest you get some brake temperature strips (Thieves sell them, not expensive) - see what temperature your brakes are getting up to then uprate pads accordingly, and as GreenV8S says then either try grooved discs or (without knowing what brakes are on your car) try vented discs. After that you're into bigger brakes and more expense...
What sort of fade is it? There are three types - Green Fade, Pad Fade and Fluid Fade.
Green Fade is when a new pad is used to soon before bedding in, and the chemicals in the pad left over from manufacture boil out, and these gasses cause the pad to lift off the disc. The symptoms are a nice hard pedal, new pads and no stopping power. Cure it by bedding in pads and discs according to the suppliers instructions.
Pad Fade is similar to Green Fade, but occurs after bedding in. It's when the temperature of the pad is exceeded, and the friction levels have dropped off. The result is a nice hard pedal, but reduced stopping power. Cure by going to a harder (hotter) pad material, although you might find that you have less braking power before everything gets up to temperature (left foot brake on your outlap and be careful on your first lap).
Fluid Fade is when the braking heat is transferred to the fluid, causing it to boil. One it has boiled it'll never be the same again. Boiling releases gas, which has to be compressed before the brakes will work - the classic pumping up of the pedal. To rectify this you either need to cool the brakes with air ducted onto them (particularly the caliper) or uprate the fluid even more (not really possible in your case).
Be aware that brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs water which lowers it's boiling point. With 'high performance' fluid this can occur to noticeable levels after just a few weeks or months - less if you've been close to boiling. Change your fluid regularly if you have any doubts about excessive brake temperatures.
Merlin Motorsport and Demon Tweeks (plus others) have a good selection of ducts and hoses that can gets some cool air on your brakes. Using temperature strips on your calipers or temperature paint on your discs will give you an idea of the temperatures involved. Alternatively you can measure temperatures after each session with an infra-red sensor thingy, although you'll be surprised how quickly everything cools down.
Binding brakes, or a slightly sticky piston, will tend to overheat a corner as well, so make sure your calipers are in good order and that pistons are relatively free to slide.
Good luck curing it.
Green Fade is when a new pad is used to soon before bedding in, and the chemicals in the pad left over from manufacture boil out, and these gasses cause the pad to lift off the disc. The symptoms are a nice hard pedal, new pads and no stopping power. Cure it by bedding in pads and discs according to the suppliers instructions.
Pad Fade is similar to Green Fade, but occurs after bedding in. It's when the temperature of the pad is exceeded, and the friction levels have dropped off. The result is a nice hard pedal, but reduced stopping power. Cure by going to a harder (hotter) pad material, although you might find that you have less braking power before everything gets up to temperature (left foot brake on your outlap and be careful on your first lap).
Fluid Fade is when the braking heat is transferred to the fluid, causing it to boil. One it has boiled it'll never be the same again. Boiling releases gas, which has to be compressed before the brakes will work - the classic pumping up of the pedal. To rectify this you either need to cool the brakes with air ducted onto them (particularly the caliper) or uprate the fluid even more (not really possible in your case).
Be aware that brake fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs water which lowers it's boiling point. With 'high performance' fluid this can occur to noticeable levels after just a few weeks or months - less if you've been close to boiling. Change your fluid regularly if you have any doubts about excessive brake temperatures.
Merlin Motorsport and Demon Tweeks (plus others) have a good selection of ducts and hoses that can gets some cool air on your brakes. Using temperature strips on your calipers or temperature paint on your discs will give you an idea of the temperatures involved. Alternatively you can measure temperatures after each session with an infra-red sensor thingy, although you'll be surprised how quickly everything cools down.
Binding brakes, or a slightly sticky piston, will tend to overheat a corner as well, so make sure your calipers are in good order and that pistons are relatively free to slide.
Good luck curing it.
I ran Pagid blues in my Nemesis, its a lightweight prototype and was around 500kg's. And never had any brake fade. I did have hurrendous brake fade which as stated on previous reply's was down to crappy Brake fluid. If you have changed the fluid however it could well be down to your Pad's. I'd recommend the blue's and if not try the slightly harder pagid grey's, my father runs the greys on his Jade and reall rates them too.
It's a strange situation in that I seem to experience (what I am assuming is fade) on a corner (most noticeably coming into Becketts at Silverstone and Clearways at Brands) and then the next corner it will be back to normal however by then I've lost that confidence in the brakes.
The fluid has been uprated and the master cylinders changed for new ones as I thought it may be the seal in the cylinder.
The symptoms are that I will be coming into a quick corner that requires heavy braking, press the pedal hard and it feels like the pads aren't gripping the disc as they would normally and thus my braking distance is greatly increased. Almost feels like when the ABS kicks in on a normal car as I can feel the brakes gripping - only not as strongly as they would normally. I'm assuming this to be fade?
I'll get some temp strips and see what temp they are running at. Might just be a simple pad change that is required.
The fluid has been uprated and the master cylinders changed for new ones as I thought it may be the seal in the cylinder.
The symptoms are that I will be coming into a quick corner that requires heavy braking, press the pedal hard and it feels like the pads aren't gripping the disc as they would normally and thus my braking distance is greatly increased. Almost feels like when the ABS kicks in on a normal car as I can feel the brakes gripping - only not as strongly as they would normally. I'm assuming this to be fade?
I'll get some temp strips and see what temp they are running at. Might just be a simple pad change that is required.
Edited by RobbieL on Thursday 2nd July 13:23
It sounds like either your pads are too hard (e.g. endurance pads meant for a heavy car or somesuch) and not getting warm enough or far too soft and getting far too hot. It doesn't sound like fluid fade if the pedal is still quite firm.
I race 2l single seaters, and I've tried Green Stuff (ha ha ha), Mintex 1144 (a bit better than the Stuffs), Ferodo 4003 (pretty damn awesome) and Pagid Blue (by far the best).
The Ferodos and Pagids take a little longer to get up to temp, but as long as I use the brakes on my way to the grid they are 98% effective into the first braking zone.
Our car is a 190hp 560kg downforce car on F3 slicks. In terms of braking energy you won't be too dissimilar, so give the Ferodos or Pagids a try (depending on how much they cost in your fitment, and even if they are available in your fitment!). Do you know what pads you are running at the moment?
If it's too high temperatures for the pad, you can groove the discs to give the gas somewhere to go. A couple of tangential grooves on each side would be enough, no real need for lots of grooves unless you want to look 'fashionable'. Don't bother drilling them though, as chances are they'll just crack a lot quicker.
I race 2l single seaters, and I've tried Green Stuff (ha ha ha), Mintex 1144 (a bit better than the Stuffs), Ferodo 4003 (pretty damn awesome) and Pagid Blue (by far the best).
The Ferodos and Pagids take a little longer to get up to temp, but as long as I use the brakes on my way to the grid they are 98% effective into the first braking zone.
Our car is a 190hp 560kg downforce car on F3 slicks. In terms of braking energy you won't be too dissimilar, so give the Ferodos or Pagids a try (depending on how much they cost in your fitment, and even if they are available in your fitment!). Do you know what pads you are running at the moment?
If it's too high temperatures for the pad, you can groove the discs to give the gas somewhere to go. A couple of tangential grooves on each side would be enough, no real need for lots of grooves unless you want to look 'fashionable'. Don't bother drilling them though, as chances are they'll just crack a lot quicker.
Edited by tristancliffe on Thursday 2nd July 13:50
speak to John Freeth @ Performance braking (01600 713117 - he's on holiday a the moment and won't be back until 09 July) about your predicament. I'd suggest you currently have incorrect pad material as a first bet though.
or Tim @ circuit supplies (01525 385 888) are very knowledgable and work with several one make race series on developing their homologated brake packages
or Tim @ circuit supplies (01525 385 888) are very knowledgable and work with several one make race series on developing their homologated brake packages
thanks for thr replys. Regarding the temp strips there are several different ones available for a range of temps. Any idea which one i'd need?
As far as I know the pads are the standard jobs which came with the car. The front brakes are Girling and the rears are Lockheed. I'm beginning to think it may be that I'm too hard on the standard bpads and they're failing miserably. Going to speak to a few people today as mentioned above and see what pads i can get to fit my brakes. Will let you know how I get on
As far as I know the pads are the standard jobs which came with the car. The front brakes are Girling and the rears are Lockheed. I'm beginning to think it may be that I'm too hard on the standard bpads and they're failing miserably. Going to speak to a few people today as mentioned above and see what pads i can get to fit my brakes. Will let you know how I get on
Also, it *may* be the case, that you are braking as one would in a road car, whilst in most cases, if you are able to brake considerably harder (think ABS trigger point in a road car) but for a shorter period of time, your issues may well disappear...
I recall a case about 5 years ago when at Donnington when one of the scooby guys came in complaining of chronic brake fade and the need for bigger brakes, etc. After the brakes had cooled off, an instructor, who IIRC was a current F3 driver took him out and said his brakes were really good!!!
It's sometimes about how you use what you've got, rather than going for a carbon/carbon setup to be on the safe side!!!
I recall a case about 5 years ago when at Donnington when one of the scooby guys came in complaining of chronic brake fade and the need for bigger brakes, etc. After the brakes had cooled off, an instructor, who IIRC was a current F3 driver took him out and said his brakes were really good!!!
It's sometimes about how you use what you've got, rather than going for a carbon/carbon setup to be on the safe side!!!
fergus said:
I recall a case about 5 years ago when at Donnington when one of the scooby guys came in complaining of chronic brake fade and the need for bigger brakes, etc. After the brakes had cooled off, an instructor, who IIRC was a current F3 driver took him out and said his brakes were really good!!!
Slower drivers tend to be harder on the brakes because the min/max speeds are further apart. The faster you drive, the less time you spend accelerating and the less energy you put into the brakes on average.Sorry to hijack the thread but...
I have the same problem with a road car.Its fine at normal driving speeds but go over 80 and brake very hard and it needs alot of force to do anything.I did have a time when they worked at high speed and frightened the life out of me,they stopped so fast.I thought there was something wrong,it was that severe.I am used to it and drive to accomodate the characteristics of the car
The car is capable of 200odd mph and has no servo.It has non standard floating[I think] discs [they rattle]and uprated calipers of some sort and I believe the last owner just did the odd track day with it.
Any one think maybe my pads are a too high heat rating thus not getting hot enough? .It would just be nice if I understood what was happening.
I have the same problem with a road car.Its fine at normal driving speeds but go over 80 and brake very hard and it needs alot of force to do anything.I did have a time when they worked at high speed and frightened the life out of me,they stopped so fast.I thought there was something wrong,it was that severe.I am used to it and drive to accomodate the characteristics of the car
The car is capable of 200odd mph and has no servo.It has non standard floating[I think] discs [they rattle]and uprated calipers of some sort and I believe the last owner just did the odd track day with it.
Any one think maybe my pads are a too high heat rating thus not getting hot enough? .It would just be nice if I understood what was happening.
RobbieL said:
ok so had my spanner man whip the wheels and discs off today while i was at work and the pads currently on it are EBC Yellow Stuff. Reading up the spec on the net these should be up to the job - or are EBC nothing special and I should move to the Pagid's or similar anyway?
EBC brown stuff more like..... See which race cars use EBC XXXX 'stuff' and you'll probably find the answer can be counted on one hand, possibly not even requiring any fingers at all. There is a reason for their cost differential to most other race pads, and it's not all branding related...Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff