Ma5da racing...getting a bit rough!!!!
Discussion
bmwguy said:
ok...I am guessing to a certain extent...but based on the fact that this year the front runners are suddenly going a lot quicker and the rules have changed. (Available to download from the BRSCC web site)
New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Sorry to disappoint you chap but there are no exotic materials. If you are going to quote the regs maybe you should quote in full rather than putting your own spin on it. New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Piston supplier is free but must be to standard form and dimensions.
Localised drilling grinding of crank to regain balance following repair.
Valves as per pistons, must be to o.e dimension and form although 3 angle seat profile allowed.
Head skimming is free.
Flywheel is not allowed to be lightened, can only reface the clutch mating surface.
You should also note that no modification is allowed to the ecu whatsoever and this is policed rigorously either by swapping between competitors or at random using control ecu from the organisers.
The speed difference has always been there. The guys at the front are some very experienced racers and know how to get the best out of the car and more importantly themselves.
Ma5da racing is probably the cheapest "professional" club motorsport in the country at the moment, borne out by the large numbers of registered cars and competitors.
Daz65
Edited by Daz65 on Thursday 24th June 08:16
Daz65 said:
Ma5da racing is probably the cheapest "professional" club motorsport in the country at the moment
Daz65
The driving standards that are tolerated don't look very professional to me (e.g. car 43)Daz65
Edited by Daz65 on Thursday 24th June 08:16
It's not the sort of championship for me but I have to admit it's good to watch
Daz65 said:
bmwguy said:
ok...I am guessing to a certain extent...but based on the fact that this year the front runners are suddenly going a lot quicker and the rules have changed. (Available to download from the BRSCC web site)
New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Sorry to disappoint you chap but there are no exotic materials. If you are going to quote the regs maybe you should quote in full rather than putting your own spin on it. New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Piston supplier is free but must be to standard form and dimensions.
Localised drilling grinding of crank to regain balance following repair.
Valves as per pistons, must be to o.e dimension and form although 3 angle seat profile allowed.
Head skimming is free.
Flywheel is not allowed to be lightened, can only reface the clutch mating surface.
You should also note that no modification is allowed to the ecu whatsoever and this is policed rigorously either by swapping between competitors or at random using control ecu from the organisers.
The speed difference has always been there. The guys at the front are some very experienced racers and know how to get the best out of the car and more importantly themselves.
Ma5da racing is probably the cheapest "professional" club motorsport in the country at the moment, borne out by the large numbers of registered cars and competitors.
Daz65
Edited by Daz65 on Thursday 24th June 08:16
Yes, the guys at the front are good drivers and they know what they are doing with the cars, but the same guys were two seconds a lap slower last year! Something has happened.....
I thought the whole point of the MX5's was that it was supposed to be accessible club motorsport. Turning it into a "professional" series goes somewhat against that philosophy.
Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
Watched these at Oulton a few weeks ago and didn't think the driving standards were rough, exuberant maybe, but not rough.
Irrespective the Mazdas certainly weren't as bad (in my eyes at least) as the antics that went on in the two Caterham R300 races on the same day.
Stood at lodge for one of the Mazda races and the grasscrete on the outside was commonly used which quite a few overdid and got away with or inevitably spun. Only one unfortunate side swiped the barrier at relatively low speed but with a grid of 32 cars seperated by not a lot of time some contact is inevitable i would have thought?
TBH it was just refreshing to see a really healthy size grid (x2) and some good close (largely clean) racing right thorugh the grid for once.
Irrespective the Mazdas certainly weren't as bad (in my eyes at least) as the antics that went on in the two Caterham R300 races on the same day.
Stood at lodge for one of the Mazda races and the grasscrete on the outside was commonly used which quite a few overdid and got away with or inevitably spun. Only one unfortunate side swiped the barrier at relatively low speed but with a grid of 32 cars seperated by not a lot of time some contact is inevitable i would have thought?
TBH it was just refreshing to see a really healthy size grid (x2) and some good close (largely clean) racing right thorugh the grid for once.
bmwguy said:
Yes, the guys at the front are good drivers and they know what they are doing with the cars, but the same guys were two seconds a lap slower last year! Something has happened.....
Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
Flying Miata can work wonders. Allegedly.Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
bmwguy said:
TBH that just looks like an unfortunate first corner racing incident - something which can happen when a full grid of fairly equal cars arrive, and someone makes a mistake. It all seems to steam from the white car spinning and causing the other cars to change their line to avoid. It could happen in many series.and reading how angry you are at the series, does make me wonder if you have anything to do with the MAX5 championship which lost all the racers to the MA5DA series championship a couple of years ago.
bmwguy said:
Nope...no connection with mazdas of any shape or form. I was looking at them but now I won't be joining them....for all the above reasons....
....although it's hard to get on the grid with them anyway....oversubscribed!
Given our apparent shared liking for Bavarian engineering, how about the PBMWC series? How does that compare for cost/cheeting/driver standards?....although it's hard to get on the grid with them anyway....oversubscribed!
Edited by bmwguy on Friday 25th June 01:22
PBMW is very strict (some say too strict) on scruntineering and stoping any cheating. Cars are regularly weighed after races and there are random power tests carried out on engines over each weekend. Engines, gearboxes and diffs must be left standard which really keeps the costs down.
The cars lack a little straight line speed on some circuits like Snetterton but running on the toyo 888 control tyres they can carry an astonishing amount of speed through the corners (flat in 4th through Corum).
Cars can be bought or built for between £3-7k (depending on the exact spec of suspension, brakes, seat, cosmetic prep etc.) Parts are dirt cheap - £10 for a wing, £100 for a replacemnet engine, £50 for a gearbox etc. The Toyo control tyres last at least four race weekends and are £60 a corner (so that's x2 sets of tyres for the whole year).
Driving standards are generally pretty good with a yellow or red cards issued after any reported incident. Yellow card is a fine and two yellows in a season = a red card which means you miss the next two race weekends.
Any contact is treated very seriously and you certainly don't get weaving or ramming like I saw in the Mazda races.
That said, with grids of 45 evenly matched cars (where circuits allow)you will always get a few incidents as people make mistakes. It also makes the races very entertaining for spectators.
The drivers at the front are there because they are better drivers, full stop. You cannot buy wins in PBMW.
The Paddock is also a great place to be with everybody mucking in to get any stricken car back out for the next race.
This is my second year in PBMW's and I can honestly say I wouldn't want to race anywhere else.
The cars lack a little straight line speed on some circuits like Snetterton but running on the toyo 888 control tyres they can carry an astonishing amount of speed through the corners (flat in 4th through Corum).
Cars can be bought or built for between £3-7k (depending on the exact spec of suspension, brakes, seat, cosmetic prep etc.) Parts are dirt cheap - £10 for a wing, £100 for a replacemnet engine, £50 for a gearbox etc. The Toyo control tyres last at least four race weekends and are £60 a corner (so that's x2 sets of tyres for the whole year).
Driving standards are generally pretty good with a yellow or red cards issued after any reported incident. Yellow card is a fine and two yellows in a season = a red card which means you miss the next two race weekends.
Any contact is treated very seriously and you certainly don't get weaving or ramming like I saw in the Mazda races.
That said, with grids of 45 evenly matched cars (where circuits allow)you will always get a few incidents as people make mistakes. It also makes the races very entertaining for spectators.
The drivers at the front are there because they are better drivers, full stop. You cannot buy wins in PBMW.
The Paddock is also a great place to be with everybody mucking in to get any stricken car back out for the next race.
This is my second year in PBMW's and I can honestly say I wouldn't want to race anywhere else.
bmwguy said:
Nope...no connection with mazdas of any shape or form. I was looking at them but now I won't be joining them....for all the above reasons....
....although it's hard to get on the grid with them anyway....oversubscribed!
Just rent one of the rent a racers and see how you get on.....although it's hard to get on the grid with them anyway....oversubscribed!
Edited by bmwguy on Friday 25th June 01:22
bmwguy said:
You are also spinning it. You omit to mention that oversize pistons are allowed for the first time in 2010. At the very least that means a rebore and a new set of pistons to be competitive. The material for the pistons is not specified in the regs so you can use whatever you like.
Yes, the guys at the front are good drivers and they know what they are doing with the cars, but the same guys were two seconds a lap slower last year! Something has happened.....
I thought the whole point of the MX5's was that it was supposed to be accessible club motorsport. Turning it into a "professional" series goes somewhat against that philosophy.
Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
You are very ill informed my friend!Yes, the guys at the front are good drivers and they know what they are doing with the cars, but the same guys were two seconds a lap slower last year! Something has happened.....
I thought the whole point of the MX5's was that it was supposed to be accessible club motorsport. Turning it into a "professional" series goes somewhat against that philosophy.
Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
The current Champion is a Painter and decorator who arrives with his car on a trailer behind an old camper van.
He has not spent thousands on an engine either!
You mean the 2009 champion is a painter and decorator! The rule changes have happened in 2010!
The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
bmwguy said:
You mean the 2009 champion is a painter and decorator! The rule changes have happened in 2010!
The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
You do talk absolute rubbish; I can only assume you have something against the series.The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
Your view on the rule changes for 2010 are wrong and the fact that people are spending vast ammounts of money on engines is also wrong.
Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 00:11
So oversize pistons are not permitted? Valve seat angles (a crucial contributor to power in a race engine) are not free? Head skimming isn't free? Crank balancing hasn't been introduced? All these things are expensive in their own right but the costs of testing to get them right are prohibitive for the average club competitor.
I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
bmwguy said:
So oversize pistons are not permitted? Valve seat angles (a crucial contributor to power in a race engine) are not free? Head skimming isn't free? Crank balancing hasn't been introduced? All these things are expensive in their own right but the costs of testing to get them right are prohibitive for the average club competitor.
I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
They were all allowed in 2009 & 2008!I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
The Current Chapion still runs on a very limited budget and still wins races regularly - he is only 5 points from the leader.
Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 00:22
Anyway...as I said on a previous post. I won't be getting involved.....not so much because of the rule changes. More because I don't want to spend all my time straightening body panels...which was the original point of the thread. No one can deny that the Castle Combe meeting was rough....there are enough videos posted on Youtube to demonstrate the point.
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff