Ma5da racing...getting a bit rough!!!!

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

Read 5.7.2 of the 2009 regulations. All the things I mentioned were specifically prohibited until this year.

Aren't you supposed to be a Mazda engine builder?


Sorry....my error. Head skimming has always been permited.

Edited by bmwguy on Sunday 27th June 00:23

Please provide the link to the regs so I can explain you are wrong - Heavy metal of the crank/flywheel reface (Not lightening) are the only significant changes.

[bmwguy]

I have a printed copy of the 2009 regs...downloaded last year when I was thinking of buying a masda. I don't know of anywhere you can download them now.

However, give me a few minutes and I will type out the 2009 engine regs.

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

Anyway...as I said on a previous post. I won't be getting involved.....not so much because of the rule changes. More because I don't want to spend all my time straightening body panels...which was the original point of the thread. No one can deny that the Castle Combe meeting was rough....there are enough videos posted on Youtube to demonstrate the point.

There are also as many videos showing very competative close racing. It is the ultimate test of how well you can prepare/set-up a car/drive a car and has nothing to do with budget.

A very competative car can be built for £5,500.

[bmwguy]

If you download the 2010 regulations from the BRSCC web site ( http://www.brscc.co.uk/ma5da.html ) you can see that the engine regs have been heavily altered for 2010. The yellow highlighting indicates wording that has been added or altered.

In 2009 the regulations read as follows.

5.7 Engine

5.7.1 Permitted modifications

Head skimming is free
Cam cover may be altered so as to expose the cam wheels and belt
The plastic cam belt covers may be removed.

5.7.2 Prohibited modifications

Lighten or balance the flywheel
Balance the crankshaft
Use a non standard or high lift cam
Use of a non standard exhaust manifold
use vernier cam pulley wheels
Use non standard aftermarket replacement pistons
Undertake any porting or polishing of inlet or outlets of cylinder heads
Inlet and exhaust valves to remain as manufacturers standard.



ok...typing fingers aching now...but you have to agree the rule changes for 2010 are fairly fundamental.

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

If you download the 2010 regulations from the BRSCC web site ( http://www.brscc.co.uk/ma5da.html ) you can see that the engine regs have been heavily altered for 2010. The yellow highlighting indicates wording that has been added or altered.

In 2009 the regulations read as follows.

5.7 Engine

5.7.1 Permitted modifications

Head skimming is free
Cam cover may be altered so as to expose the cam wheels and belt
The plastic cam belt covers may be removed.

5.7.2 Prohibited modifications

Lighten or balance the flywheel
Balance the crankshaft
Use a non standard or high lift cam
Use of a non standard exhaust manifold
use vernier cam pulley wheels
Use non standard aftermarket replacement pistons
Undertake any porting or polishing of inlet or outlets of cylinder heads
Inlet and exhaust valves to remain as manufacturers standard.



ok...typing fingers aching now...but you have to agree the rule changes for 2010 are fairly fundamental.

No........I completely disagree!

Tell me what has changed??

2010 Regs:

PERMITTED MODIFICATIONS
Head skimming is free .
Cam cover may be altered so as to expose the cam wheels and Belt.
The plastic cam belt covers may be removed
It is permitted to use aftermarket replacement pistons provided that they meet standard form and dimensions. The
maximum over bore permitted is +0.50mm
It is permitted to use aftermarket inlet and exhaust valves provided that they meet standard form and dimensions,
valve seat angles are free.


5.7.2 PROHIBITED MODIFICATIONS
Lighten of the flywheel is prohibited however it is permitted to remove material to reface the clutch area.
Machining or polishing of bottom end components is not allowed. Localised drilling and grinding is permitted to gain
the correct balance of crankshafts and con rods following the recovery of a damaged components only. Heavy metal
may be added to the crankshaft for the same purpose if required after repair.
It is only permitted to use a standard dimension camshaft
It is not permitted to use a non standard exhaust manifold
The use of vernier cam pulley wheels is prohibited
Porting or polishing of the inlet exhaust ports of the cylinder heads is prohibited

(1) Mazda Produce a 0.5mm overbore piston that was allowed in 2009 - this year, to help reduce costs you can use an aftermarket piston to 0.5mm.
(2) Aftermarket valves have to be identical to Mazda valves.(Doesn't alter performance)
(3) Flywheel can not be balanced or lightened as before but the regulation of re-facing was added to avoid arguements.
(4) Mazda cylinder heads already have three angle valve seats - 20yr old cylinder heads can have the seats re-cut and re-used.
(5) Still no vernier pulleys or performance camshafts.

Like I said balancing the crankshaft is the only significant one and is a waste of time - it's easier just to get a good one out of a scrap motor they are that well balanced from Mazda.

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 01:16

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 02:17

[bmwguy]

I agree you can build a car for £5500 that will get within sight of the podium in the hands of a good driver, but winning will mean taking full advantage of the new engine regs plus a lot of testing. Testing costs £300 a day if you combine it with the race weekend and £500 a day if you do it away from race weekends. The engine mods will cost more (£800 for a set of OEM oversize pistons + rebore + head skimming + valve seat cutting + gasket sets + consumables ) ...say £5000 for a fresh engine from a reputable engine builder?

That's starting to look like the thick end of £15000 to be in a position to win and then you still have to pay race entries and the costs of being at meeting ( ...it costs £100 in fuel just to drag the car to a meeting on a trailer!!! Probably another six grand for the season?

There is no cheap motor racing, but the MX5's are no where near being the cheapest.

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

...say £5000 for a fresh engine from a reputable engine builder?

That's starting to look like the thick end of £15000 to be in a position to win and then you still have to pay race entries and the costs of being at meeting ( ...it costs £100 in fuel just to drag the car to a meeting on a trailer!!! Probably another six grand for the season?

There is no cheap motor racing, but the MX5's are no where near being the cheapest.

£1200 - £1500 for a good Race engine actually :-)

Tom Roche who won last years championship did it with an engine from a breakers yard that finally let go at castle Combe after a season and a half racing - it cost £400!

He actually competed with a completely knackered engine at Castle Combe and still set the fastest lap of the day and a 3rd place in Race 3 - they are just extremely good drivers at the front!

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 02:17

[bmwguy]

You can disagree as much as you want but I think oversize pistons, carefully cut valve seats and balanced moving components will make a difference to any race engine...otherwise Minister and the like are pulling the wool over a lot of peoples' eyes.

Also, if you can afford to buy half a dozen scrap engines to choose the best parts from each, you aren't exactly the normal budget club competitor!

[bmwguy]

How much did Tom Roche pay for the engine he is using this year?

[bmwguy]

Well, It will be interesting to see if he wins with it.

£1200 doesn't even sound like the cost of the parts to rebuild an engine.

Good scrap engine £400
Gasket sets - £200
Bearings - £200
Valves?
Valve springs?
Cost of head skimming?

Obviously you are putting it together FOC!

[nikpro]

Video from a car fitted with a 'Built Motor' at Castle Combe Race 3:

http://www.vimeo.com/12764401

The timesheets from TSL show he was setting almost the same fastest lap times as Rob Boston - he didn't do any testing and his budget for the year is less than £6,000.

I agree testing is beneficial and we suffer because we can not afford to do it but you can still run at the front with a car costing considerably less than you think!

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 13:00

[bmwguy]

Ok...I agree there is an argument to be had about the relative abilities of different drivers,and I am not qualified to make any judgements. I still believe that the rule changes introduced for 2010 have allowed some drivers to use the size of their wallet to compensate for their lack of skill. It's a shame, because one make racing should be about everyone having equal equipment.

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

I still believe that the rule changes introduced for 2010 have allowed some drivers to use the size of their wallet to compensate for their lack of skill.

Which ones specifically - as I've said there has been no rule changes that alter the output of the engine!

[bmwguy]

Are you seriously suggesting that increasing the size of the pistons does not affect the power output?

or...are you saying that people used oversize pistons in 2009 even though it wasn't permitted by the regs? Both the 2009 and this years regs say that cars have to be "standard". Oversize pistons are clearly not standard so should not have been used prior to this year when they were specifically permitted.

This gets worse by the minute!! Were the organisers turning a blind eye to breaches of the regulations when it suited them?

Edited by bmwguy on Sunday 27th June 03:06

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

Are you seriously suggesting that increasing the size of the pistons does not affect the power output?

or...are you saying that people used oversize pistons in 2009 even though it wasn't permitted by the regs? Both the 2009 and this years regs say that cars have to be "standard". Oversize pistons are clearly not standard so should not have been used prior to this year when they were specifically permitted.

This gets worse by the minute!! Were the organisers turning a blind eye to breaches of the regulations when it suited them?

I really don't know why you are so 'hung-up' on these oversize piston issues??

Oversize pistons WERE allowed IN 2009 as long as they were STANDARD MAZDA Parts - which they were. (MAZDA produce overbore in 0.25mm & 0.5mm) What part of that are you struggling to understand???

Nowhere in the 2009 Tech regs does it say you can not use Standard Mazda Oversize pistons, it says prohibited modifications include the use of -

bmwguy said:

(2009 Regs) NON STANDARD AFTERMARKET REPLACEMENT pistons

THERE IS NO MENTION OF OVERSIZE MAZDA PISTONS THERE - are you imagining it???
(Mazda Oversize Pistons have been allowed since Ma5da Started!)

This Year you can choose between standard Mazda or AFTERMARKET Pistons up to 0.5mm that meet the form & dimensions of an original MAZDA piston! (You can Buy 1mm overbore aftermarket pistons so that is why the regs say 0.5mm to match the Standard Mazda Parts - simples).

The series is run very proffesionally and if their is any queries over the tech regs the cheif scrutineer can be contacted to verify the elligibilty of any part used.

From your posts you say you have no involvement in Mazda's so why are you 'hell bent' on criticising a racing class you have no involvement/understanding of? (Or maybe you did compete and couldn't 'cut it' in the largest most competative single make race series in the UK, that has a grid packed full of Champion Karters, ex Clio Cup racers, Ginetta G50 and Formula Ford drivers amongst others??)

Every year the tech regs are re-written and added to to clarify certain points - the use of aftermarket pistons was introduced to keep costs down and Mazda Parts supply is getting limited on these old cars!

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 13:24

[lord summerisle]

nikpro said:

Oversize pistons WERE allowed IN 2009 as long as they were STANDARD MAZDA Parts - which they were (MAZDA produce overbore in 0.25mm & 0.5mm); what part of that are you struggling to understand???

From your 2009 Regs:

bmwguy said:

Use NON STANDARD AFTERMARKET replacement pistons

This Year you can choose between STANDARD MAZDA or AFTERMARKET Pistons up to 0.5mm!

Nik, Is that because the aftermarket pistons are cheaper than the Mazda part, or because Mazda are no longer producing the pistons? or simply a question of timescales/ease of sourcing replacement pistons?


ETA - looks like you answered my question as i was asking it.

Hopefully next year i will be able to get to marshal your meetings at Oulton and Anglesey - missed you this year with other commitments - last years weekend at Anglesey was the highlight for me during the 'caterham festival'

Are there plans for another Autum series of races at the Britcar 24hr weekender?

Edited by lord summerisle on Sunday 27th June 11:45

[nikpro]

lord summerisle said:

nikpro said:

Oversize pistons WERE allowed IN 2009 as long as they were STANDARD MAZDA Parts - which they were (MAZDA produce overbore in 0.25mm & 0.5mm); what part of that are you struggling to understand???

From your 2009 Regs:

bmwguy said:

Use NON STANDARD AFTERMARKET replacement pistons

This Year you can choose between STANDARD MAZDA or AFTERMARKET Pistons up to 0.5mm!

Nik, Is that because the aftermarket pistons are cheaper than the Mazda part, or because Mazda are no longer producing the pistons? or simply a question of timescales/ease of sourcing replacement pistons?


ETA - looks like you answered my question as i was asking it.

Hopefully next year i will be able to get to marshal your meetings at Oulton and Anglesey - missed you this year with other commitments - last years weekend at Anglesey was the highlight for me during the 'caterham festival'

Are there plans for another Autum series of races at the Britcar 24hr weekender?

Edited by lord summerisle on Sunday 27th June 11:45

There will hopefully be an Autumn Series again.

It's always nice to hear from the Marshalls who do a fantastic job - most seem to really enjoy watching the Mazda Racing and these are the guys that have to clear up the debris from all the awful driving!

Seriously - some of the driving standards at times could be improved but punishment is handed out. On the other hand with very full grids in similar specced cars there is always the danger of racing incidents; which I believe the incident at Combe was (Not the intentional ramming of a competitors car vid which is disgusting and I have reported).

Edited by nikpro on Sunday 27th June 12:13

[clubracing]

nikpro said:

Oversize pistons WERE allowed IN 2009

Oversize pistons were definately not permitted in the 2009 regs.

They are not mentioned under the permitted modifications and were prohibited by rule 5.2.1

"Mazda MX-5 vehicles are showroom standard with the exception opf the following restrictions or specifically allowed modifications.

Unless specifically mentioned or approved in these regulations, no modifications may be made."

Oversize pistons are not 'showroom standard'.

[nikpro]

clubracing said:

nikpro said:

Oversize pistons WERE allowed IN 2009

Oversize pistons were definately not permitted in the 2009 regs.

They are not mentioned under the permitted modifications and were prohibited by rule 5.2.1

"Mazda MX-5 vehicles are showroom standard with the exception opf the following restrictions or specifically allowed modifications.

Unless specifically mentioned or approved in these regulations, no modifications may be made."

Oversize pistons are not 'showroom standard'.

We Raced and they were allowed; they are a standard Mazda part! This is exactly why the regs have been added to to avoid the confusion certain people are showing.

[micron750]

From a spectators point of view there seem very little between the cars considering how close the racing was just a pity we won't see em at Combe again till next year now well we're hoping they will