Ma5da racing...getting a bit rough!!!!

[clubracing]

nikpro said:

We Raced and they were allowed; they are a standard Mazda part! This is exactly why the regs have been added to to avoid the confusion certain people are showing.

No possible interpretation of the 2009 regs would permit oversize pistons as they are not specifically mentioned anywhere, being a mazda part has nothing to do with it as they are not part of the models standard manufacturer specification. Were someone to have lodged a technical protest and the engine been stripped, the pistons would have been deemed illegal because of the wording of the rules.
Were I involved with the Ma5da championship, your postings would make me concerned as to other possible modifications you perform on your engines that are not mentioned in the rules.

Edited by clubracing on Monday 28th June 13:21

[nikpro]

clubracing said:

nikpro said:

We Raced and they were allowed; they are a standard Mazda part! This is exactly why the regs have been added to to avoid the confusion certain people are showing.

No possible interpretation of the 2009 regs would permit oversize pistons as they are not specifically mentioned anywhere, being a mazda part has nothing to do with it as they are not part of the models standard manufacturer specification. Were someone to have lodged a technical protest and the engine been stripped, the pistons would have been deemed illegal because of the wording of the rules.
Were I involved with the Ma5da championship, your postings would make me concerned as to other possible modifications you perform on your engines that are not mentioned in the rules.

Edited by clubracing on Monday 28th June 13:21

Thank you for your criticism on a public forum about my engines! This is really turning into a pointless discussion as neither of you are involved in the Ma5da Championship so have no understanding of what is agreed - it is a drivers championship and the tech regs are discussed openly as to what is allowed.

I am more than happy for someone to strip and 'tech inspect' any engine I build - I know they are legal and feel quite affronted at your back handed comment that we might cheat - it is a serious allegation that you make whilst you have no first hand knowledge of the series. :-(

This years regs state:

'It is permitted to use aftermarket replacement pistons provided that they meet standard form and dimensions. The
maximum over bore permitted is +0.50mm'


By your own (clubracer) interpretation this would also mean again that you can not use a Mazda oversize piston in 2010 as it's not specifically mentioned!

Does that not strike you as being slightly strange?? - Obviously it must? The reason it mentions that you can now use aftermarket oversize is because in 2009 you could only use Mazda oversize - they are part of the FSM showing as a standard replacement part. (these cars are 20yrs old and parts need replacing - the original discussion was the cost of engines - a rebore is far cheaper that a new short motor from Mazda at £2,300!)

The Showroom Condition quote does not specifically apply to the engine otherwise you would have been breaking the tech regs by using any patern/aftermarket parts like gaskets, bearings, lubricants etc - none of which are mentioned in the tech regs. So, according to your arguement; do you have to use factory standard oil grades as filled in the showroom?

Fortunately, as said in a previous post, the series takes a common sense approach and understands it is not practicable to write tech regs covering all aspects without making it a tombstone like F1 Regs. If you have a querey talk to the Cheif scrutiner, it can be discussed by a committee and deemed legal/illegal - this was done when Ma5da split from Max 5 several years ago.

I hope this helps.

Edited by nikpro on Monday 28th June 22:44

[clubracing]

My apologies,this is not intended as an arguement or an accusation, I was just trying to illustrate my point of view.

The rule about 'showroom standard' is in the general section of the regs so applies to all of the technical regulations, as does the rule about 'if not specifically mentioned it is prohibited'. 'Aftermarket' indicates that the pistons are not fitted to the engine from new and are not part of the standard specification, it has no implications on the manufacturer of the part, as obviously the orignal pistons are made by an outside company for mazda such as hepolite etc. (I'm not familar with the details of this engine.)

You say the regs are discussed so thats how people knew it was permitted, but this discussion shows the need to have the regs 'tombstone', particularly in the Ma5da championship because it is the largest and most competitive one make series in the UK. Leeway in the regs could allow a modification which only gives a couple of tenths a lap but would make a driver almost unbeatable because of how close it is.

Edited by clubracing on Monday 28th June 21:33

Edited by clubracing on Monday 28th June 21:36

[nikpro]

I personally think that anyone would understand that the word 'aftermarket' means not a Mazda Part, especially when read in the context of the whole sentence:

'It is permitted to use aftermarket replacement pistons provided that they meet standard form and dimensions, with a maximum oversize of 0.5mm'

Why would they need to specify 'standard form and dimensions'.

It's not possible for an oversize piston to meet 'standard dimensions' unless they are reffering to the Standard Mazda 'oversize piston'??

Edited by nikpro on Monday 28th June 21:43

[clubracing]

Yes, if you interpret 'aftermarket' as you have, mazda oversize pistons are not permitted.

The technical regs are just generally quite poorly worded, leaving a lot of ambiguity. They should have used 'Non standard' rather than 'Aftermarket' and stated 'standard form and dimesions excluding 0.5mm oversize'.

Edited beacuse I orginally misunderstood your post.

Edited by clubracing on Monday 28th June 22:03

[clubracing]

A 'Standard' part is defined in the Blue book as conforming to the specifications of the part fitted to the engine by the manufacturer when the engine was new. For the regulations to refer to a 'Standard oversize piston' it must be done explicitly. Hence the ambiguity.

[nikpro]

Obviously, something you are not able to view unless you are registered with the series is the Forum discussing the tech.regs.

I will quote a post from the technical advisor to the series when discussing the 2010 Regs:

Ma5da Tech. Forum said:

Hi All
Just to try and get some of your comments in context

The regs are staying the same ( in essence)

What the MSA require is more clarification hence some of the wording changes

Blueprinting, repair and rebalance (if required) within Mazda specs has always been allowed
As for for engine internals, they cannot be checked without an engine strip and once stripped the parts can be verified as Mazda by the part numbers and machining or alterations will also be visible

Parts that have always been allowed, (alloy rads, aftermarket waterpumps, clutch, alt belt, ect. should stay just the same, we cannot go back we can only go forward.
(Parts that do not give any performance advantage, i.e aftermarket shifters ect,
I personally would leave open)

Springs - I agree that the helper spring rule needs to go its just not needed

Points – I agree with Chris as far as the fastest lap but the rest seems OK (plenty of championships have been won without winning a race, consistency wins championships)

Qualifying/starts positions - may be driver voted but this may depend on the entry levels in 2010

We are trying to compile usefull pionts to vote on

The factory service manual shows the overbore sizes to repair an engine hence it was and always has been allowed.

Edited by nikpro on Monday 28th June 23:18

[bmwguy]

So the Masda championship regulations can only be understood if they are read in conjunction with a (hidden!!!) part of the Ma5da web site?

The regulations of a championship should be the only thing governing the technical and sporting aspects of the way a championship is run. That's what the MSA requires and is what anyone competing in or considering competing in a championship is entitled to expect. It is amazing to discover that there are other rules and interpretations which don't appear in the regulations of a championship! It is absolutely astonishing that this is the case in one of the largest and most popular one make championships in the UK!

These really are some of the sloppiest, most loosely worded regulations I have ever seen. Maybe the championship organisers, the BRSCC and the MSA (as they approved them), should get their act together and produce a properly drafted, definitive set of regulations which will clearly state what is, and what is not allowed to be done to the cars.

Edited by bmwguy on Tuesday 29th June 00:51

[Roo]

No one has aswered bmwguy's question yet though about how come some drivers are now considerably faster this year than last.

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

So the Masda championship regulations can only be understood if they are read in conjunction with a (hidden!!!) part of the Ma5da web site?

The regulations of a championship should be the only thing governing the technical and sporting aspects of the way a championship is run. That's what the MSA requires and is what anyone competing in or considering competing in a championship is entitled to expect. It is amazing to discover that there are other rules and interpretations which don't appear in the regulations of a championship! It is absolutely astonishing that this is the case in one of the largest and most popular one make championships in the UK!

These really are some of the sloppiest, most loosely worded regulations I have ever seen. Maybe the championship organisers, the BRSCC and the MSA (as they approved them), should get their act together and produce a properly drafted, definitive set of regulations which will clearly state what is, and what is not allowed to be done to the cars.

Edited by bmwguy on Tuesday 29th June 00:51

The regulations refer to a Workshop manual defining the word 'standard' - if it explains the proceedure in that it can be done unless it is prohibited by the regs set out - it is quite simple really. If there is a doubt you ask.

No matter how thorough the regs are written there will always be a different interpretation of the regs or loopholes - this happens in every form of Motorsport, especially in F1 that have the most comprehensive regs written.

(Go and buy it if you want to know what can be done and stop criticising something you say you have no interest in! I do, however get the feeling though that because your original, incorrect assumption that a car running at the front of the grid would cost circa £30,000 has been proved to be wrong you now wish to criticise another part of the series - it is all you have continously done through this thread and each time have been proved wrong.)

The cars this year are producing quicker lap times because people are getting more from them and the standard of driving has improved again - people learn from experience. I think the days of 'throwing' a scrap yard engine in are gone if you want to compete at the front and the car prep has to be perfect in every way (transmission/diff/ wheel bearings etc)- If you feel you shouldn't need to do this you are very niave, however it isn't expensive to do (as I have highlighted in previous posts) - there are plenty of people you can draw experience from but it does require commitment and time, rightly so, if you want to race at the front!


(Both the person I support (driver) and myself have full time jobs, the driver spent the coldest winter in years re-building a shell from scratch lying on the driveway outside with no workshop in his spare time.)

If you are not prepared to put this commitment into the car prep then you could always do an 'arrive and drive' with someone like Blendini Racing who offer well prepared vehicles and two excellent drivers to offer advice, all at very reasonable rates!

Edited by nikpro on Tuesday 29th June 17:49

[bmwguy]

You seem to be taking this thread as an attack on the drivers in the Masda championship. It isn't...don't be so over sensitive.

The initial post was just a comment on the very high damage rate amongst the cars in the series. This may just be because there are so many of them (40+ cars in every race) or because there is such a mix of experienced drivers and outright beginners. The front 10 cars seem to be able to race pretty cleanly....the rough stuff is further down the order.

Not sure how it happened but a discussion of the regs then got mixed in with the original subject. All that's being said is that the rules need tightening up. I am sure they would be fine if you had a small intimate championship with 15 to 20 cars where everyone knows each other, but the regs as written are wholly inadequate for a championship which occupies more than half the paddock at a meeting and where no one knows who is driving the car they are next to on the track. Lets face it....this is the largest UK championship. It ought to get its act together and not leave itself open to these sorts of criticisms.

[lord summerisle]

well let's not forget the championship is only a few years young. coming into being in 07/08 ish. its grown quickly since then. asyou are seeing the ruled ARE getting clarified as questions arise.

the guys must be doing something right to be getting all these entries, when a lot of other championships have been suffering reduced entries.

[Daz65]

bmwguy said:

I think you can run around at the back of the masda field with a home built special, but the guys at the front are spending mega-bucks on engine development. It started out as a budget series but now its so big it has turned into a cheque book championship. I think you are talking £30000+ a season if you want to win. I walked round the paddock...most of the cars come in articulated lorries with huge awnings and a team of mechanics.

The attitude to body damage seems to be its a minor expense compared to the other costs...so they don't care! Cheap club racing it is not!!!

You have a short memory chap, it was your post as quoted that started this off. The only "people" criticising seems to be yourself. Indeed I only decided to post again following your latest comments. What have you got against Ma5da Racing? those of us involved are happy, the circuits are happy, the spectators are happy and why not with full grids and close racing throughout the grid. You seem to have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner on the basis of a one race accident. If you think the regs are not fit for purpose, which incidentally puts you at odds with both the BRSCC and the MSA, why don't you get involved instead of constantly sniping for no good reason. The Ma5da Racing regs are constantly evolving and the ethos has always been one of discussion between the Drivers and co-ordinators, again something you would know if you got involved!

Oh and just to finally put to bed this argument about oversize pistons, just about every "standard production" championship allows the use of an oversize piston! The key is in the wording of "only parts listed in the particular manufacturers workshop manual". What this means in practise is that the manufacturer will list several rebore options for the purpose of repair, which means that in the case of mazda, a +0.5mm oversize was listed and was therefore always allowed, just that this year for the puposes of saving money an aftermarket supplier could be used instead of o.e mazda. If the people at the front are spending "mega-bucks on engine development" as you put it, then how do you explain the fact that the current champion blew his engine during the friday test day, managed to borrow a bottom end that was lying around in the back of someone's trailer, and with this last minute cobbled together replacement, still managed 2nd and 3rd in their two races and set the fastest lap!

Rant over, Ma5da Racing seems to be a formula that people want and I for one hope that it continues.

Regards,

Daz65

[Matt_N]

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

FFS!

It's Mazda!

[heebeegeetee]

Matt_N said:

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

FFS!

It's Mazda!

Or Ma5da in this case.

[bmwguy]

beat me to it!! ha ha

"only parts listed in the particular manufacturers workshop manual" ...can't find this in the ma5da regs....feel free to put me right if it is there....

[nikpro]

bmwguy said:

You seem to be taking this thread as an attack on the drivers in the Masda championship. It isn't...don't be so over sensitive.

ahem............your first Post & Topic Starter:

bmwguy said:

never let a race go by without a red flag or a safety car and at least two or three cars destroyed at every meeting! Basically a bunch of guys with more money than sense, knocking seven bells out of each other at over 100mph.

Forgot that post did we?

........and then;

Second Post by You:

bmwguy said:

The attitude to body damage seems to be its a minor expense compared to the other costs...so they don't care!

What about that one?

........and the next;

Third Post by you:

bmwguy said:

My point is that it seems to be getting very rough with door handle banging and mid-corner nudges becoming the norm rather than the exception....but hey! If you want to go banger racing, you pay your money and take your chances...

Am I wrong to think you are attacking the drivers or do we actually communicate in a different language?


Then it was you who introduced the tech regs and posted this:

bmwguy said:

ok...I am guessing to a certain extent...but based on the fact that this year the front runners are suddenly going a lot quicker and the rules have changed. (Available to download from the BRSCC web site)

New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.

None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.

At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.

Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?

This HIGHLIGHTS your inability to read as the front runners last year were doing very similar laptimes! (Approx. half a second quicker if you discount Tom with a knackered engine!)


2009 (Race 2):

(1)Tom Roche - 1,22.5
(2)Paul Sheard - 1,22.9
(3)Rob Boston - 1,22.8

2010 (Race 3):

(1)Paul Sheard - 1.22.3
(2)Rob Boston - 1.22.5
(3)Tom Roche - 1.22.6

Please explain to me where this IMAGINARY two seconds exists? (Or did this little porkie help your arguement?)

In every single post you have made on this thread you have come up with complete fabrications and assumptions and have forgotten what you have said in previous posts - How do you explain this?? (I would love to know).

You must have raced an MX5 at some point and been absolutely crap - you have looked in that well known 'Race Driver Excuse book' and tried to find an explanation mechanical or otherwise. In-fact, you are just green with envy that some people just have way more talent than you. You obviously see yourself as a driving god and an engineering guru, so there must be some other reason you were so slow! (This part of the post is just speculation and assumption - the same as you have used in most of your posts!)

.........and to answer your last post - sec.5.1 of the regs later replaced by this Bulletin:

http://www.ma5daracing.com/mk1/2010/files/2010ma5d...

Upto 2010 it was the Mazda FSM for the vehicle. (The one above is easier to read for people like yourself and has pretty little pictures to help you along.....we're like that in Ma5da racing; all heart )

bmwguy said:

Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.

Must go; I'm off to Mclaren to pick up my pnuematic valves, alloy block and titanium rods that I've had made for my 20yr Old Mazda Engine!...............'Rodney, you plonker.'

Edited by nikpro on Thursday 1st July 04:23

[Matt_N]

heebeegeetee said:

Matt_N said:

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

bmwguy said:

Masda

FFS!

It's Mazda!

Or Ma5da in this case.

No.

He's been using Masda when describing Mazda parts.

[dan101smith]

Don't be too hard on the OP - because of this thread you're going to have two new drivers in next year's championship!

[nikpro]

Superb......and welcome to 'the fold'!