Ma5da racing...getting a bit rough!!!!
Discussion
Interesting thread. I'm curious to know if the OP actually competes?
I agree that SOME of the driving standards could do with looking at but am struggling to see your cost comparisons with other similar series.
A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
I agree that SOME of the driving standards could do with looking at but am struggling to see your cost comparisons with other similar series.
A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
1 said:
Interesting thread. I'm curious to know if the OP actually competes?
A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
Total rubbish.A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
Not sure what PBMW championship you've been watching (or not watching as the case may be).
So far this year we've had 7 different race winners, all in different cars.
The costs you quote are also total fabrication.
Cage, shocks and wheels for £5k! The drivers deals we get mean we can get that lot for well under £2k.
For the record our race wheels have to be 15 inch 7J, one piece (no split rims) and lightweight materials like magnesium are not allowed. Not exactly "free" then.
Most guys use standard BBW BBS rims or the Team Dynamics 1.2 Pro race wheels (£240 a set).
Similarly shocks are only allowed to be one way adjustable.
As for a competitive car costing £10k. Nonsense.
Mat Swaffam bought a car for £5k (I know because I nearly bought it myself) and stuck it on pole at Brands.
As far as you are "aware" no MX5 has gone for over £6.5k.
Hmmmm not sure how you could possibly know that. Deals on successful cars tend to kept private. It seems you're being a little naive perhaps?
I'm not looking for a fight I just wanted to put the record straight with some facts.
Maldini35 said:
1 said:
Interesting thread. I'm curious to know if the OP actually competes?
A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
Total rubbish.A front running PBMW car goes for cira £10k, as far as I'm aware no MX5 has gone for more that £6.5k.
The very fact that cages, shocks and wheels are essentially free in PBMW equates to £5k before you have even started on the engine. At least with the MX5's there are normally 3/4 cars much quicker than the rest, in PBMW it is often just 1 car!
Not sure what PBMW championship you've been watching (or not watching as the case may be).
So far this year we've had 7 different race winners, all in different cars.
The costs you quote are also total fabrication.
Cage, shocks and wheels for £5k! The drivers deals we get mean we can get that lot for well under £2k.
For the record our race wheels have to be 15 inch 7J, one piece (no split rims) and lightweight materials like magnesium are not allowed. Not exactly "free" then.
Most guys use standard BBW BBS rims or the Team Dynamics 1.2 Pro race wheels (£240 a set).
Similarly shocks are only allowed to be one way adjustable.
As for a competitive car costing £10k. Nonsense.
Mat Swaffam bought a car for £5k (I know because I nearly bought it myself) and stuck it on pole at Brands.
As far as you are "aware" no MX5 has gone for over £6.5k.
Hmmmm not sure how you could possibly know that. Deals on successful cars tend to kept private. It seems you're being a little naive perhaps?
I'm not looking for a fight I just wanted to put the record straight with some facts.
An MX5 championship winning car sold for £6500 last year.I know you can get the parts mentioned for £2k but the fact that they are not a kit as with the MX5's means you CAN and people DO spend significantly more. A fully welded custom cage will cost you £2-3k fitted and we all know the main suspension manufactures will build you a significantly different shock depending on you budget, even if they are restricted to 1-way adjustable.
To think anything else is naive perhaps?
I also stand by my point regarding the times;
PBMW 2010
Silverstone - nearly 1 and a half seconds between pole and second place, 2 seconds between pole & 4th on grid
Snett nearly a second between pole and 3rd on the grid!
Brands nearly a second between pole and 4th place on grid
Pretty big margins when you consider everyone is in the "same" machinery.
I agree that a gifted driver in the right car can make a big difference, but that is the case in many forms of racing. The point I was trying to make is that the fact that the major upgrades in PWBM aren't based on a kit means that it is more inclined to influence by your budget rather than your ability.
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The Koba PBMW car sold for nearly £10k at the end of last year, it had never raced and therefore had no history and they hadn't even done anything to the engine. And I can say with confidence that certain drivers are spending circa £3k on engine rebuilds
An MX5 championship winning car sold for £6500 last year.I know you can get the parts mentioned for £2k but the fact that they are not a kit as with the MX5's means you CAN and people DO spend significantly more. A fully welded custom cage will cost you £2-3k fitted and we all know the main suspension manufactures will build you a significantly different shock depending on you budget, even if they are restricted to 1-way adjustable.
To think anything else is naive perhaps?
I also stand by my point regarding the times;
PBMW 2010
Silverstone - nearly 1 and a half seconds between pole and second place, 2 seconds between pole & 4th on grid
Snett nearly a second between pole and 3rd on the grid!
Brands nearly a second between pole and 4th place on grid
Pretty big margins when you consider everyone is in the "same" machinery.
I agree that a gifted driver in the right car can make a big difference, but that is the case in many forms of racing. The point I was trying to make is that the fact that the major upgrades in PWBM aren't based on a kit means that it is more inclined to influence by your budget rather than your ability.
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Look I don't want to make an issue over this after all it really doesn't matter but the fact is I compete in PBMW and know it's inner workings pretty well.
I'm sure you are an avid motorsport fan, maybe you compete in a different series, build and prep cars or perhaps you just yearn to compete yourself one day, but your research into PBMW has not been very thorough.
Therefore your inaccurate pontificating about the costs involved and technical regulations for the championship did grate a little.
I take you you now accept that your figure of £5k for a roll cage, suspension and wheels is incorrect?
Sure it is 'possible' to spend more if you want to waste money for no discernable gain but nobody does. Look at the top 5 cars in the championship and you'll see they all run the GAZ or Spax suspension kits (both well under a grand). As for fully welded custom cages for £3k, again it's 'possible' to do that if you shop around for the most expensive supplier you can find but not many do.
In short you can spend a lot of money (and I'm sure there are a couple that do - there always are) but it will in no way guarantee you success.
I also take it that you now realise you were wrong to say that wheels and suspension were effectively "free" in the regs. Again, no argument here, you are wrong.
As for the MX5 championship, I don't claim to know all the details and would certainly never pretend to know how much building a car and competing in it would cost.
All I said was that it was a little naive to make sweeping statements about how much the most expensive race car was ever sold for. Unless you were involved in the negotiation you can never know this (people often tell white lies about how much they paid for things).
I also see there's a car advertised for £7K in the PH classifieds at the moment - could this break the MX5 all time record....?
Finally you insinuate that PBMW is more a chequebook championship because a standard kit for the cars isn't specified. Quite the opposite in fact. This means people can build their own cars for a lot less and still be competitive. Again, if you popped along to a race and had a wander around the paddock this would soon be obvious.
I'm not sure of your point regarding pole times. Qualifying is always something of a lottery in PBMW as with 45 cars on circuit getting a clear lap is not easy. (Again, come to a race and see for yourself). That said there will always be certain drivers who are stronger on particular circuits they are more familiar with. Nothing unusual in that.
As I said previously, we have had 7 (seven) diferent winners so far this year.
I suggest you forget misleading pole times and look at the race results.
The only way to really get a real flavour is to come along a to a race meeting, talk to some of the drivers and have a good nosey around. Picking up on some forum rumours and a scan of the classifieds will never give you the full story.
I have competed in motorsport for over 10 years and raced in both the MX5 championships and PBMW as well as many others.
I am not knocking either championship just commenting that if one were more prone to be cheque book racing it would be the series where competitors are free to chose the main upgrades rather than if they were part of a kit. Obviously the driver plays a big part, as I previously stated.
I suspect you, like many others in PBWM have only competed in that series? Either way I stand by my original points and I suspect if you look a little closer you would agree.
p.s. Give me your Avo, Spax or Gaz shocks and £600 and I will give you back a completely rebuilt set of shocks that will revolutionise the handling of your car and yet look no different to the originals. If you have a little more to spend I can also recommend wheels that offer a weight saving of 2kg a corner over the BBS wheels. While this may not sound much I am sure you are aware of the benefits of saving unsprung weight.
But I understand if you want to keep your money as anyone who knows anything knows that neither of these upgrades will make any difference as its all about the driver
I am not knocking either championship just commenting that if one were more prone to be cheque book racing it would be the series where competitors are free to chose the main upgrades rather than if they were part of a kit. Obviously the driver plays a big part, as I previously stated.
I suspect you, like many others in PBWM have only competed in that series? Either way I stand by my original points and I suspect if you look a little closer you would agree.
p.s. Give me your Avo, Spax or Gaz shocks and £600 and I will give you back a completely rebuilt set of shocks that will revolutionise the handling of your car and yet look no different to the originals. If you have a little more to spend I can also recommend wheels that offer a weight saving of 2kg a corner over the BBS wheels. While this may not sound much I am sure you are aware of the benefits of saving unsprung weight.
But I understand if you want to keep your money as anyone who knows anything knows that neither of these upgrades will make any difference as its all about the driver
Even if one had the tightest technical regs possible that resulted in everyone spending exactly the same amount on a car, it still wouldn't stop someone from spending several £K a year on attending every test day they can get on, professional tuition/coaching, data logging and analysis kit etc. etc. Where do you draw the line?
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