Discussion
I think you chaps need to man-up.
I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
Storer said:
I think you chaps need to man-up.
I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
Yeah right! That's why my Noble had power steering, twin turbochargers (with intercooler) and a stereo as standard fitment and air con was an option to omit!I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
Gordon Murray's Maclaren F1, Standard equipment included on the stock McLaren F1 full cabin air conditioning, electric defrost/demist windscreen and side glass, electric window lifts, remote central locking, Kenwood 10-disc CD stereo system. also standard were tailored, proprietary luggage bags specially designed to fit the vehicle's carpeted storage compartments, including a tailored golf bag!
Colin Chapman was too tight fisted to fit anything he didn't need to
Also in terms of road cars the Ultima is not what I'd call a light car in its present form.
A 730 kilo Elise with an Audi Turbo lump at a modest 430 BHP.... now that's a light car, I hear some are making in excess of 500 BHP now!
Anyway I only want the assisted steering for parking the damn thing!
It is quite a lot of expense and complication just to make it easier to park. Not something I have had a problem with.
The Noble was trying to be a 911 alternative so needed the wimp steering.
The F1 weighed in at not much more than an Ultima following cutting edge (at the time) weight saving to allow for all the creature comforts.
The Lotus is a different matter. A nice light car, Honda with supercharger for the road, Audi Turbo for the track - too much lag for the road IMO.
OK, if you want a car with all the mod cons it's up to you. You are slightly missing the point of an Ultima, but each to their own.
Paul
The Noble was trying to be a 911 alternative so needed the wimp steering.
The F1 weighed in at not much more than an Ultima following cutting edge (at the time) weight saving to allow for all the creature comforts.
The Lotus is a different matter. A nice light car, Honda with supercharger for the road, Audi Turbo for the track - too much lag for the road IMO.
OK, if you want a car with all the mod cons it's up to you. You are slightly missing the point of an Ultima, but each to their own.
Paul
Storer said:
It is quite a lot of expense and complication just to make it easier to park. Not something I have had a problem with.
The Noble was trying to be a 911 alternative so needed the wimp steering.
The F1 weighed in at not much more than an Ultima following cutting edge (at the time) weight saving to allow for all the creature comforts.
The Lotus is a different matter. A nice light car, Honda with supercharger for the road, Audi Turbo for the track - too much lag for the road IMO.
OK, if you want a car with all the mod cons it's up to you. You are slightly missing the point of an Ultima, but each to their own.
Paul
Hands up those who have a stereo system.The Noble was trying to be a 911 alternative so needed the wimp steering.
The F1 weighed in at not much more than an Ultima following cutting edge (at the time) weight saving to allow for all the creature comforts.
The Lotus is a different matter. A nice light car, Honda with supercharger for the road, Audi Turbo for the track - too much lag for the road IMO.
OK, if you want a car with all the mod cons it's up to you. You are slightly missing the point of an Ultima, but each to their own.
Paul
You're all missing the point of an Ultima.
teamHOLDENracing said:
I have a Corsa column fitted to my TVR Sagaris V8 race car. As someone has mentioned, they do have play in the column due to the way the torque sensor works. You won't notice it until it is on the car - turn the system off then turn the steering - you get a couple of degrees of steering wheel movement before the road wheels move.
Initially I had an Ebay controller with a variable adjuster. Even on the lowest assist setting it was far too light on a race track. It also provided assist when unwinding lock, causing you to go over centre, which was unnerving on track. Most worryingly it would sometimes cut out altogether and come back on - so you had too much assistance, then none, then too much again. In short it was bloody dangerous and I abandoned it. The thermal cutout in the Corsa ECU couldn't cope with the assist required with slicks on a track.
I replaced it with the DC Electronics Motorsport EPAS ECU and it is a revelation. No cutting out, I can programme the assist levels (5 different settings, each configurable) - and because I can configure the shape of the input/output torque curves, I can set it up so it effectively gives more assist in slow speed hairpins than it does on high speed sweeping bends. It also has a steering angle sensor which gives me rack stop protection (switches off the power when you reach full lock - unlike the cheapo versions which will continue to demand more assist until something burns out). I'm hugely impressed with it. DC also do a version with a strain gauge which dispenses with the slack in the system - I'm still on the standard torque sensor version and don't notice the play whilst racing, although inevitably it must mean that driver inputs are slightly delayed.
Granted this is all feedback from racing and is less relevant on the road, but thought you might find it helpful.
In short do you think the car is better for the EPAS or would you rather go back to un-assisted, I assume you fitted the EPAS initially to overcome the extra steering load produced by Slicks?Initially I had an Ebay controller with a variable adjuster. Even on the lowest assist setting it was far too light on a race track. It also provided assist when unwinding lock, causing you to go over centre, which was unnerving on track. Most worryingly it would sometimes cut out altogether and come back on - so you had too much assistance, then none, then too much again. In short it was bloody dangerous and I abandoned it. The thermal cutout in the Corsa ECU couldn't cope with the assist required with slicks on a track.
I replaced it with the DC Electronics Motorsport EPAS ECU and it is a revelation. No cutting out, I can programme the assist levels (5 different settings, each configurable) - and because I can configure the shape of the input/output torque curves, I can set it up so it effectively gives more assist in slow speed hairpins than it does on high speed sweeping bends. It also has a steering angle sensor which gives me rack stop protection (switches off the power when you reach full lock - unlike the cheapo versions which will continue to demand more assist until something burns out). I'm hugely impressed with it. DC also do a version with a strain gauge which dispenses with the slack in the system - I'm still on the standard torque sensor version and don't notice the play whilst racing, although inevitably it must mean that driver inputs are slightly delayed.
Granted this is all feedback from racing and is less relevant on the road, but thought you might find it helpful.
With the standard torque sensor set-up I'd be concernen about "that" delayed input, out of curiosity how many other racers in your class use the EPAS?
Also how do you do in the races? just asking to get an idea of how it may affect overall lap time.
I was more concerned with tight manouvering involved getting my car into its garage, but if it ruins the feedback I'll pass.
F.C. said:
In short do you think the car is better for the EPAS or would you rather go back to un-assisted, I assume you fitted the EPAS initially to overcome the extra steering load produced by Slicks?
With the standard torque sensor set-up I'd be concernen about "that" delayed input, out of curiosity how many other racers in your class use the EPAS?
Also how do you do in the races? just asking to get an idea of how it may affect overall lap time.
I was more concerned with tight manouvering involved getting my car into its garage, but if it ruins the feedback I'll pass.
In short, I would never go back to unassisted. The car was a brute to drive unassisted - do-able, but you were knackered after 20 mins, especially in the heat generated in the cockpit. We run 10" wide slicks and with the castor and camber we run you'd get out of the car pumped up like Popeye and exhausted. You can do that if its a 20 minute sprint race, but we are now doing Britcar with 2, 3 and 4 hour endurance races and I challenge even the fittest driver to do an hour long stint (or more) with unassisted steering and remain quick.With the standard torque sensor set-up I'd be concernen about "that" delayed input, out of curiosity how many other racers in your class use the EPAS?
Also how do you do in the races? just asking to get an idea of how it may affect overall lap time.
I was more concerned with tight manouvering involved getting my car into its garage, but if it ruins the feedback I'll pass.
The vast majority of cars we race against have power steering, many of them EPAS but some with hydraulic systems. The Mosler uses the same system that we have, and I have never heard of anyone complain about the steering in a Mosler. Our steering has been superb since switching to the DC Electronics motorsport ECU and after the first few sessions as we tweaked the steering maps to get it right for us. The play in the column is tiny and unnoticeable whilst driving - any impact on lap time from a miniscule delay in steering input is more than compensated for by the benefits. The car is substantially easier to race and ultimately that makes it quicker.
teamHOLDENracing said:
I have a Corsa column fitted to my TVR Sagaris V8 race car. As someone has mentioned, they do have play in the column due to the way the torque sensor works. You won't notice it until it is on the car - turn the system off then turn the steering - you get a couple of degrees of steering wheel movement before the road wheels move.
Initially I had an Ebay controller with a variable adjuster. Even on the lowest assist setting it was far too light on a race track. It also provided assist when unwinding lock, causing you to go over centre, which was unnerving on track. Most worryingly it would sometimes cut out altogether and come back on - so you had too much assistance, then none, then too much again. In short it was bloody dangerous and I abandoned it. The thermal cutout in the Corsa ECU couldn't cope with the assist required with slicks on a track.
I replaced it with the DC Electronics Motorsport EPAS ECU and it is a revelation. No cutting out, I can programme the assist levels (5 different settings, each configurable) - and because I can configure the shape of the input/output torque curves, I can set it up so it effectively gives more assist in slow speed hairpins than it does on high speed sweeping bends. It also has a steering angle sensor which gives me rack stop protection (switches off the power when you reach full lock - unlike the cheapo versions which will continue to demand more assist until something burns out). I'm hugely impressed with it. DC also do a version with a strain gauge which dispenses with the slack in the system - I'm still on the standard torque sensor version and don't notice the play whilst racing, although inevitably it must mean that driver inputs are slightly delayed.
Granted this is all feedback from racing and is less relevant on the road, but thought you might find it helpful.
Thanks that great feedback,Initially I had an Ebay controller with a variable adjuster. Even on the lowest assist setting it was far too light on a race track. It also provided assist when unwinding lock, causing you to go over centre, which was unnerving on track. Most worryingly it would sometimes cut out altogether and come back on - so you had too much assistance, then none, then too much again. In short it was bloody dangerous and I abandoned it. The thermal cutout in the Corsa ECU couldn't cope with the assist required with slicks on a track.
I replaced it with the DC Electronics Motorsport EPAS ECU and it is a revelation. No cutting out, I can programme the assist levels (5 different settings, each configurable) - and because I can configure the shape of the input/output torque curves, I can set it up so it effectively gives more assist in slow speed hairpins than it does on high speed sweeping bends. It also has a steering angle sensor which gives me rack stop protection (switches off the power when you reach full lock - unlike the cheapo versions which will continue to demand more assist until something burns out). I'm hugely impressed with it. DC also do a version with a strain gauge which dispenses with the slack in the system - I'm still on the standard torque sensor version and don't notice the play whilst racing, although inevitably it must mean that driver inputs are slightly delayed.
Granted this is all feedback from racing and is less relevant on the road, but thought you might find it helpful.
this thread got me worried for a while as I have a Corsa B system installed. I did speak to DC yesterday but got cut due to phone issues, but will be ringing them back tomorrow.He did say that the Torsion bar version is on a few of this years BTCC cars so it cant be that bad and even asked why I was so concerned about it ?? only when I said i was going to turn it off at speeds above 20mph did he say then yes you might feel a little delay...
So question on your Sagaris which exact ECU did you go for, the 60amp or the 100amp version ? and can I ask how much that was in cost ??
That is such a 'standard' response to such a suggestion. So why do F1 cars have assisted steering? Same reason they have automated gearboxes and every other auto-techno-gizmo that you can imagine. It allows the driver to focus on driving, on being more accurate, on getting less fatigued. And F1's don't even HAVE a parking problem.
In fact I like the heavy steering of my Ultima, but I can definitely see how, with proper weighting and feedback how an assisted steering system can make me a better and more accurate driver.
I've got pretty good-sized 'guns' and never have been told to man up before.
V
In fact I like the heavy steering of my Ultima, but I can definitely see how, with proper weighting and feedback how an assisted steering system can make me a better and more accurate driver.
I've got pretty good-sized 'guns' and never have been told to man up before.
V
Storer said:
I think you chaps need to man-up.
I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
I'm an old fa*t and I can manage the steering even with 285 Khumo fronts. Yes it's heavy, but the faster you go the better it is!
With standard front wheels it's fine. My steering wheel is larger than standard though.
Everything extra you add to the car - servo clutch, EPAS, stereo & speakers, super/pro charger, intercooler, etc, etc would see Lee Noble (or Colin Chapman, Gordon Murry, Etc,) pulling out their hair (or turning in his grave in Colin's case).
One of the main reasons that these cars are so awesome is that they have big power in a LIGHT car..
Remember, less is more!!!!
Paul
GTRCLIVE said:
Thanks that great feedback, this thread got me worried for a while as I have a Corsa B system installed. I did speak to DC yesterday but got cut due to phone issues, but will be ringing them back tomorrow.
He did say that the Torsion bar version is on a few of this years BTCC cars so it cant be that bad and even asked why I was so concerned about it ?? only when I said i was going to turn it off at speeds above 20mph did he say then yes you might feel a little delay...
So question on your Sagaris which exact ECU did you go for, the 60amp or the 100amp version ? and can I ask how much that was in cost ??
I have the EPAS Ultra Power Steering ECU (the 100amp motorsport one). But to be honest if all you are intending using it for is at sub 20mph parking then you absolutely don't need the DC ECU -just use the standard Corsa ECU with one of the £30 E bay rally controllers - it will be perfectly fine at low speeds this thread got me worried for a while as I have a Corsa B system installed. I did speak to DC yesterday but got cut due to phone issues, but will be ringing them back tomorrow.He did say that the Torsion bar version is on a few of this years BTCC cars so it cant be that bad and even asked why I was so concerned about it ?? only when I said i was going to turn it off at speeds above 20mph did he say then yes you might feel a little delay...
So question on your Sagaris which exact ECU did you go for, the 60amp or the 100amp version ? and can I ask how much that was in cost ??
To put your mind at rest, I raced my car for two years with the Corsa column installed and switched off. You won't notice the minimal play in the steering switched on or off.
The DC system is only remotely worthwhile if you intend using the power steering all the time.
On the question of running more Caster (To gain more turn in Camber) how much are you running and whats the KPI ? my C5 Corvette's have had Zero Camber at rest(large front tires long straight roads so i understand why zero at rest) but with a small KPI and 7Deg of Caster they do gain a lot of Camber on turn in and they do seem to handle well. Increased Kpi is a nice way of dialing out some the scrub radius but it does tend to dial back the effect of the caster angle.
Any thoughts ??
Any thoughts ??
GTRCLIVE said:
On the question of running more Caster (To gain more turn in Camber) how much are you running and whats the KPI ? my C5 Corvette's have had Zero Camber at rest(large front tires long straight roads so i understand why zero at rest) but with a small KPI and 7Deg of Caster they do gain a lot of Camber on turn in and they do seem to handle well. Increased Kpi is a nice way of dialing out some the scrub radius but it does tend to dial back the effect of the caster angle.
Any thoughts ??
C5 has 10mm scrub radius with 8.8KPI assuming standard 8.5 x 17 wheel with 58mm offset with an outside diameter of 25.7"Any thoughts ??
It makes not much sense to use a kpi greater than necessary for lower scrub radius for stability, when that stability could be gained from more caster.
Or am I understanding you wrong?
I've used the Corsa C EPAS column in my Vortex kit car, and it's not bad at all, especially when it only cost £100. No need for one of the ebay controllers, instead i've wired it with a speed signal so the amount of assistance does vary slightly at parking and motorway speed.
I have had to increase the amount of caster to try and get better self centring though.
I've got a fixed rake unit spare if someone wants a cheap one to have a play with?
I have had to increase the amount of caster to try and get better self centring though.
I've got a fixed rake unit spare if someone wants a cheap one to have a play with?
EddyP said:
I have had to increase the amount of caster to try and get better self centring though.
Using a programmable ecu would prevent the over centre return assist feedback obviating the need to change castor.As I understand it using one of these can stop the assist at full lock also.
Have you got rid of the overcentre feedback altogether with the castor adjustment?
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