Dreaming of S85 power

[jcolley]

s62 said:

More affordable standalone: http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/article_SC232/SC-Tor...

I saw that, but I'm confused. It says the Tornado 2 has 6 injector outputs.

I think I remember your RNGTOY from M5 board. Very impressive!

[cooberpedy]

Indeed, confusing...
The number of injector-outputs is not much of a problem, you can always wire two in parallel.

The bigger problem is the nubmer of ignition-channels, in this case, 10 are required.
I suppose, they have some configurable pins doing ignition, to have 10 in total to feed the ign-amplifiers.

I have chosen the DTA S100 as this ECU has sufficient number of channels for ignition.

In the video, the engine is convertet to alpha-n. They say, that they are using the oem CAN idle valves. This is something that doesn't work! Running on alpha-n does not allow for any idle control using bypass valves.

Did you already contact them? Would be interesting to hear, how they manage to control the g-force controled oil-pumps :-) and the ion-sensing ignition :-) ha...
cheers
Cornel

[s62]

Sorry I don´t have any specifics on the Tornado, just considered them
for my project:



Will be running the stock ecu however.

[macgtech]

Put a proper transmission in it - get an Albins AGB trans (either sequential or synchro) unit in it which will give you the capacity for over 1000Nm of torque when you decide to pump up the output.

And as luck would have it...

http://www.macgracing.co.uk/shop/drivetrain/13-alb...

[jcolley]

cooberpedy said:

Indeed, confusing...
The number of injector-outputs is not much of a problem, you can always wire two in parallel.

The bigger problem is the nubmer of ignition-channels, in this case, 10 are required.
I suppose, they have some configurable pins doing ignition, to have 10 in total to feed the ign-amplifiers.

I have chosen the DTA S100 as this ECU has sufficient number of channels for ignition.

In the video, the engine is convertet to alpha-n. They say, that they are using the oem CAN idle valves. This is something that doesn't work! Running on alpha-n does not allow for any idle control using bypass valves.

Did you already contact them? Would be interesting to hear, how they manage to control the g-force controled oil-pumps :-) and the ion-sensing ignition :-) ha...
cheers
Cornel

I'm not sure I follow on the idle actuators...with the MSS_65 DME, the idle actuators are used under all throttle conditions and on torque demand are fully opened before cracking open the throttle actuators. My car is alpha-N on the stock DME (Evolve tune) and still functions this way.

I have mapped and decoded most of the CAN Arbitration IDs and messages for the E60, I halfway thought about making a small microcontroller to simulate all the needed CAN messages and eliminate several of the modules and retain the stock DME. Not east by any means, but far cheaper.

[cooberpedy]

jcolley said:

I'm not sure I follow on the idle actuators...with the MSS_65 DME, the idle actuators are used under all throttle conditions and on torque demand are fully opened before cracking open the throttle actuators. My car is alpha-N on the stock DME (Evolve tune) and still functions this way.

Good point, any idea, how they do it? The prase alpha-n says, that the tps readings (angle alpha)are used as load, and they are mapped against rpm (n). So if you add extra air to the engine via the idle valves, the ecu won't see it and cannot adjust fueling properly. A mix of control strategy, perhaps?

jcolley said:

I have mapped and decoded most of the CAN Arbitration IDs and messages for the E60, I halfway thought about making a small microcontroller to simulate all the needed CAN messages and eliminate several of the modules and retain the stock DME. Not east by any means, but far cheaper.

That is kind of the opposite what my plans are. I will go for an aftermarket ECU (DTA S100 Pro), for fexibility reasons. I'm trying to keep most stock actuators (trottle, ionsensing-ign., oil pumps...) and sensors, which are going to be connected to my own microcontroller unit. I have just started to decode the relevant CAN-Messages and Signals.

As you have already done that, is there any chance you are willing to share your measurements, to speed things up a little?
Cheers
Cornel

[jcolley]

cooberpedy said:

Good point, any idea, how they do it? The prase alpha-n says, that the tps readings (angle alpha)are used as load, and they are mapped against rpm (n). So if you add extra air to the engine via the idle valves, the ecu won't see it and cannot adjust fueling properly. A mix of control strategy, perhaps?

I'm not 100%, but I think the programming of the DME has throttle opening mapped as a percentage driven by torque demand (pedal %) and RPM. Then, that throttle position is translated as a percentage opening of the Idle Actuator (from 0-100%) to Total opening (like 10%...guessing here) and then adds the Throttle actuator on top of that, so 0-100% throttle actuator starts from 10% (again, guessing here) to 100% total opening. That really makes a lot more sense in my head than it does in words...

cooberpedy said:

As you have already done that, is there any chance you are willing to share your measurements, to speed things up a little?
Cheers
Cornel

Certainly! Here's the thread I started on it:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

I haven't verified it 100%, but I logged about 25 minutes of data one day and voice logged everything along the way. Then I dumped it from the SD card logger into Excel and went from there. Haven't had a chance to work on it much lately, but got a huge boost from another thread:

http://www.loopybunny.co.uk/CarPC/k_can.html

It seems the E84 and the E60 share almost identical CAN ArbIDs. I haven't cross-reference them all, but all the ArbIDs listed that I have looked at individually match events that were in the voice log. The former thread shows the speed calculation as well.

Good luck, will be following along.

[e21jason]

There are a couple of conversions on the e30zone with s85 engines, they have had the stock ecu modified to run in stand alone mode without the additional canbus inputs. Might be cheaper than an aftermarket ecu

[jcolley]

e21jason said:

There are a couple of conversions on the e30zone with s85 engines, they have had the stock ecu modified to run in stand alone mode without the additional canbus inputs. Might be cheaper than an aftermarket ecu

Somehow I missed this post, but I just registered and I'm interested to know more how they did it.

There's a thread on M5board about the MSS-65 that may eventually lead to something useful.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

I'm still kicking the idea around in my head. She Who Will Not Be Ignored won't let me have 2 toy cars, so the M5 has to go first. It's going to be really hard to gather data and tinker if the car's gone, but I have to start somewhere.

[e21jason]

look up ergen motorsport as they have done a few conversions

[jcolley]

M5 is officially up for sale and the wife has a huge renovation list I have to get through before I can "play".

However, I still need to occupy my brain-space with something, so here are a few questions.

- Regarding the Ultima chassis mods necessary for the S85 to fit, would these be less necessary (perhaps not at all?) if the engine was converted to a true dry sump? How far down do the frame pieces have to be moved in order fit the engine with the (tall) stock oil pan?

- Dry sump conversions don't seem to be abundant for the S85. VAC Motorsports in the US offers a pan only and KMS racing has a kit, but how do these operate in conjunction with the high pressure VANOS pump? Without that in the sump, can the pan be made even shallower? It seems to me that the entire VANOS system on the engine operates in more of a high pressure, low flow state as opposed to a large fluid mass flow rate. Perhaps an alternative could be using an external electrically operated hydraulic pump to raise pressure to the HP VANOS requirement, yet still operate on an oil feed from the engine's oil pump. This would eliminate to the electric oil pumps on the side of the oil pan as well, getting some of the weight penalty back.

- Regarding engine management, AEM has introduced the Infinty standalone ECU a couple of years ago and have a 10 cylinder version. Anyone seen an S85 running this yet?

- For standalone ECUs, has anyone maintained the ionic current modules for misfire detection or have all gone back to the old (reliable) knock sensor somewhere?

[andygtt]

I've sent my M5 to see if the smg can be repaired cheaply .... I've recently been thinking that and audi v10 from the R8 or lambo might be a better option for my twin turbos as they are already proven to 1000bhp which is my target power.

Does anyone know of any serious up S85 engines? Wonder if the block and crank can take it?

[chuntington101]

Andy's, what's the advantage of the m5 plant over the Audi v10? Could the r8/Lamborghini gearboxes be used in mid engined setups?

[andygtt]

I already have a bullit proof box with adjustable ratios lined up regardless of engine choice, good for over.700ftlb and 300mph at 8k rpm lol

I just want to choose the right engine... Bet The v10s from the s8 that are already turbocharged won't be the right choice as they don't rev enough for a light car so make too much torque to be fast in my light car, I want revs :-)

[ezakimak]

jcolley said:

- Dry sump conversions don't seem to be abundant for the S85. VAC Motorsports in the US offers a pan only and KMS racing has a kit, but how do these operate in conjunction with the high pressure VANOS pump? Without that in the sump, can the pan be made even shallower? It seems to me that the entire VANOS system on the engine operates in more of a high pressure, low flow state as opposed to a large fluid mass flow rate. Perhaps an alternative could be using an external electrically operated hydraulic pump to raise pressure to the HP VANOS requirement, yet still operate on an oil feed from the engine's oil pump. This would eliminate to the electric oil pumps on the side of the oil pan as well, getting some of the weight penalty back.

the only variable valve timing dry sump report/info i can think of off the top of my head is this one. keep in mind that at high revs you want as much oil flow/protection as you can get. the VANOS system will consume some of that flow.

http://www.speedracersportscars.com.au/PRBS2K.htm

it might pay to pull the current pump apart and work out how big it actually is, work out how fast it spins and how much flow rate it can deliver.

[cooberpedy]

jcolley said:

- Regarding the Ultima chassis mods necessary for the S85 to fit, would these be less necessary (perhaps not at all?) if the engine was converted to a true dry sump? How far down do the frame pieces have to be moved in order fit the engine with the (tall) stock oil pan?

Hi Jim,
good to hear that another S85-GTR is going to be developed on the other side of the pond.:-)

I don't think, that chassis mods can be omitted by having a dry sumped S85.
The S85 simply doesn't fit without extensive cutting and welding.
Here is a picture of my chassis.



I also made a removable subframe to mount the gearbox and substitute the two upper crossmembers.



cheers Cornel

[UltimaCH]

What gear box is that?

[cooberpedy]

997 GT3 RS

[UltimaCH]

Interesting. Thanks!

[jcolley]

Been away a bit, but as the house projects lumber on, my brain keeps ticking on this.

Picked up an S85 with spun bearing, looking forward to rebuilding that soon.

I have looked quite a lot at the VANOS system lately and have disassembled a few VANOS solenoids (I have a donated bag of 50 or so from Troy Jeup here in the states) and have a spare VANOS pump I've taken apart as well. The system only demands flow when the solenoids are positioned to remove the advance of the timing (forward motion in an E60). The VANOS pump maintains the system pressure, but the fluid demand is supplied by the accumulator which is kept charged by the pump.

I've emailed KMS about their dry sump and it turns out the pan and pump are manufactured by Dailey Engineering here in the US. I emailed them directly a bit and their dry sump is available in two versions, one which retains the VANOS pump and VANOS system and one which does not. The image shown on the KMS website is of the "with" version, explaining the small rectangular box on the bottom to allow for the lower half of the VANOS pump. I assume the VANOS pump is fed by a line from the external oil pump, but not certain.

Either way, it obviously won't avoid the chassis mods (thanks to AutoBionics for setting me straight on that one via email), but could perhaps allow lower mounting of the engine in the chassis depending on the chosen gearbox.

As for max output of an S85, have a look at the Dinan S85 Riley track car videos on YouTube for what a built engine can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1532Yzsbk

There is also a VS Motor S85 for a top fuel dragster that seems fairly potent as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myrep2aIgbw

I think my initial plan will be a stock, NA motor to get a feel for the car and build, and perhaps a twin turbo low compression version later. I've talked with Neel Vasavada of ApexSpeed Tech here in the US and he's done a number of S85s using both Pectel and Motec ECUs. I think I've set my mind on a Motec M150 or M190 and downloaded the software used to program and tune them it's extremely impressive.

Cornel, I think my first move however will be to remove the control boards inside the throttle actuators and drive the motors directly from full bridge outputs from the ECU. I've had my share of S85 actuator failures and with donations from other M5board members, have about 15 dead actuators to choose from for parts. I will admit that although I was fully convinced the failures were mechanical with worn gear teeth, there's a chap in the UK named Ian who has made a bang-up set of replacement gears for them. I installed a set in my most recent failed actuator and it still produced faults. I switched the electronics boards to my good actuator and the fault followed the board, so apparently the electronics either cause the gear damage or become damaged by it. Either way, I have no intention on carrying that over to a transplant engine to chase errors. I'm dumping those control boards to simplify the throttle control.

Public request for someone who speaks German well: What does this mean? "verzögertes und verschliffenes wi" I know "wi" is an abbreviation for indicated torque, and "verzögertes" means delayed or averaged, but what is "verschliffenes" in this context? Google translate only gets you so far...


As for the gearbox, there is a newly available version of the Graziano 6 speed used in the Gallardo and R8 which has a removable/reconfigurable bell housing that looks ideal. These are available brand new in the US from RCR (hope that's not blasphemous here) for $10k. It's pricy, but brand new and simple and on the closest side of an ocean to me.

And finally, an admission. I've been stalking the Superlite SL-C lately and I really, really like it. I am a good ways out to making a decision on the car yet, but really need to ride in one to compare to Ultima. I have an Ultima that lives literally 1/2 mile from me, but haven't seen the SL-C in the flesh yet.

Either way, it'll be an S85.