Dreaming of S85 power

[jcolley]

Still hashing out my ideas/plans/dreams for a GTR build soon.

I will be selling my E60 M5 to strengthen my case with the wife that I need to build this car, but I will really miss the sound of a decatted V-10.

I visited Autobionic's page and looked into their build. The S85, DME, CAN bus, etc don't scare me as I've built a couple of CAN modules for my M5 (exhaust cutout controller) already. However, as nifty as would be to machine my own gearbox casing...I would like to drive the car within the next 10 years.

So, aside from all the hassle of getting a the big V-10 situated properly in the chassis, what do you all think the possibilities are of mating the block to the G50?

[Storer]

Why use a G50. There are other alternatives but most are more expensive. You will still need to do some engineering, not least on the adaptor plate.

Paul

[F.C.]

G50 more than capable of dealing with 500BHP 380lbft but with that engine would be a poor choice, a little too unrefined IMO.
To be honest with those figures a modest LS will be more than a match.
But as an engineering project quite a challenge.

[jcolley]

I know BMW chose 7 speeds for a reason. Having driven the M5 for a while, it really needs them all for smooth power delivery. However, I have access to several blocks and I'm very familiar with the engine, more so than any other.

Once the rod bearing issues, VANOS high pressure pump issues, and connecting rod side clearances are sorted out and the engine is given a proper oil (not the TWS crap BMW specs), they are really an impressive engine. Once outside the constraints of the E60 engine bay, a proper supercharger can be fitted along with a proper fuel delivery system.

There is so much interaction between the SMG computer and the MSS65 DME however, that it would be an order of magnitude more complcated to try and pair the SMG with a standalone Engine ECU. The reverse is easier however as the the M5/M6 were offered in a 6MT configuration.

The more I look at AB's V10, it almost seems like it would have been easier to machine an entire custom transmission housing rather than cut/weld/etc the Porsche and BMW housings together.

[cooberpedy]

Thats what i did.....




Its a 997 GT3RS-Transaxle mated to a S85 V10.
All you have to fabricate is adaptor, new flywheel, spigot bearing adaptor.

It is not just a "bolt it in" job. Lots of mods to the spaceframe tubes required to get it in. And you should be aware of, that every little bit you will need has to be engineered first, no exhaust, no fuel system, no induction system, no engine oil system, that would fit is readily available. If you like that kind of challenge, go for it!
cheers
Cornel

[spatz]

have you solved the problem with the driveshafts, it seems that the hubs will not align
because the engine is too long

[cooberpedy]

hi,
managed to install the engine as far forward as possible.
The driveshafts point back a little by approx. 1.5deg, which is far less than the maximum safe angle of approx 5deg. Should be fine with that....

[V8Dom]

spatz said:

have you solved the problem with the driveshafts, it seems that the hubs will not align
because the engine is too long

photo is deceptive... once dropped down the engine will be further forward than in that photo.

[andygtt]

Ive decided to take my M5 off the road to use the engine in my car because I love the engine so much... I was twin turboing the older V12 but after having the M5 I decided the V10 is a way better option.... fact that it revs to well over 8000rpm and with a silencer delete its up there with the best sounding cars I have heard.

Are you located in UK?

[V8Dom]

Andy
it says Germany on his profile

domn

[cooberpedy]

hello andy,
i'm from germany. I live near the lake of constance.
Are you going to build something similar to what my plans are?

[jcolley]

andygtt said:

Ive decided to take my M5 off the road to use the engine in my car because I love the engine so much... I was twin turboing the older V12 but after having the M5 I decided the V10 is a way better option.... fact that it revs to well over 8000rpm and with a silencer delete its up there with the best sounding cars I have heard.

Are you located in UK?

Andy,

Just make sure you change the rod bearing while it's out...

Plenty of horror stories on M5board about blown engines with thrown rods, spun bearings,etc. BMW just changed the specified oils for all cars including M cars to thinner oils as the TWS 10W-60 is too thick for the extremely tight rod bearing clearances BMW chose on the S65 V-8 and the S85 V-10.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/Synth...

The reason this all became a concern is well documented here as the part numbers and clearances are the same as the S85:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8928...

This caused a few M5board guys to start changing the rod bearings preventively and what came out didn't look good:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

Amazing engine and I love driving mine, but a little needy at times. I switched to Mobil1 0W-40 and sleep better.

[andygtt]

cooberpedy said:

hello andy,
i'm from germany. I live near the lake of constance.
Are you going to build something similar to what my plans are?

Im scratch building as I sold my Ultima may years ago... Been playing with my Noble and made moulds and then vac formed carbon body panels for it but i'm now keen to get back into building my proper monster with the V10 instead of the V12.

Im planning to twin turbo the M5 engine and go for 1000bhp, Im using a beefed up race spec GT3/GT2 transaxle... I did have a Motec M800 ecu to run it but recently stole that and used it in the noble (its a 3.0L V6 and I have charged it to 700bhp) but will probably buy another to run the complex V10.

Im in Munich next week as Im doing a project there, will be back and forth a lot over the next 6 mths

[andygtt]

jcolley said:

Andy,

Just make sure you change the rod bearing while it's out...

Plenty of horror stories on M5board about blown engines with thrown rods, spun bearings,etc. BMW just changed the specified oils for all cars including M cars to thinner oils as the TWS 10W-60 is too thick for the extremely tight rod bearing clearances BMW chose on the S65 V-8 and the S85 V-10.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/Synth...

The reason this all became a concern is well documented here as the part numbers and clearances are the same as the S85:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8928...

This caused a few M5board guys to start changing the rod bearings preventively and what came out didn't look good:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

Amazing engine and I love driving mine, but a little needy at times. I switched to Mobil1 0W-40 and sleep better.

will definatelly be replacing the big end bearings as had that on the radar before I took the car off the road

the SMG pump on the box went in mine, got a replacement but thing i'm going to not bother fixing it and just steal the engine

[jcolley]

andygtt said:

will definatelly be replacing the big end bearings as had that on the radar before I took the car off the road

the SMG pump on the box went in mine, got a replacement but thing i'm going to not bother fixing it and just steal the engine

SMG is my specialty, what specifically failed? Just the pump motor or the whole hydraulic unit? I have a nice bin of spare parts for mine if it ever goes. So far, so good, 72k original clutch, shifts smooth as butter since I calibrate it routinely. Biggest failing on BMW AG's part was not doing that as a yearly preventive item.

[andygtt]

jcolley said:

andygtt said:

will definatelly be replacing the big end bearings as had that on the radar before I took the car off the road

the SMG pump on the box went in mine, got a replacement but thing i'm going to not bother fixing it and just steal the engine

SMG is my specialty, what specifically failed? Just the pump motor or the whole hydraulic unit? I have a nice bin of spare parts for mine if it ever goes. So far, so good, 72k original clutch, shifts smooth as butter since I calibrate it routinely. Biggest failing on BMW AG's part was not doing that as a yearly preventive item.

I managed to a new entire hydraulic unit with low mileage pump... Will prob need a clutch while I'm there as it has done 110k on original. Shifted smooth as silk and failed just cruising at 80mph without any changes... Blew the fuse and pump apparently smelt bad.

Thing is its a fab car in great condition and spec... If I fix it I won't won't to remove the engine to use in my project so I'm loath to fix lol... Even in fantastic condition it's only worth 11k here in uk

[chuntington101]

Andy, how much boost do you plan on running though the motor? are these relatively easy engine to boost?

[jcolley]

andygtt said:

I managed to a new entire hydraulic unit with low mileage pump... Will prob need a clutch while I'm there as it has done 110k on original. Shifted smooth as silk and failed just cruising at 80mph without any changes... Blew the fuse and pump apparently smelt bad.

Thing is its a fab car in great condition and spec... If I fix it I won't won't to remove the engine to use in my project so I'm loath to fix lol... Even in fantastic condition it's only worth 11k here in uk

You may be able to just pick up the pump motor and replace that. What year, late '05 to early '06? There was a SIB which recalled the motors due to a defect in the brush material. Yours may have just let go finally. Motor is about $350 or so and is easily replaceable and I think can be done without dropping the transmission. The entire hydro unit...not so much. There's a company in the US (bimmerzone) which offers the clutch and flywheel for $1500. Also, a huge improvement just hit the street within the last month: there's a revised clutch release bearing which has a delrin inner. Check out the pics here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...

This is a huge improvement and should solve the problems of sticky/galling release bearings and clutch judder that has plagued many of these cars. If you ever get a 4FA0 code stored in the SMG module, this is the cause.

I'm not saying don't stuff an S85 in an Ultima, but don't abandon a great beast in the process.

[jcolley]

cooberpedy said:

hi,
managed to install the engine as far forward as possible.
The driveshafts point back a little by approx. 1.5deg, which is far less than the maximum safe angle of approx 5deg. Should be fine with that....

cooberpedy,

I would really like to know more about your build. What ECU are you using? I was recommended the Pectel SQ6.

I had an injector stick open last week and hydro-lock the engine on cylinder 8. When I get it all put back together, I may just start down this journey and sell the M5.

I am thinking of a supercharger similar to ESS Tuning's new VT3 arrangement. That's worth about 650 WHP in the M5 and should do nicely. Obviously no point in getting any of it from ESS, probably the only usable thing would be the blower and it's mounting bracket and that's debatable.

[s62]

More affordable standalone: http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/article_SC232/SC-Tor...