Ultima Engine provider-Again!!
Discussion
It's a fun topic this one 
As others have said there are plenty of options out there, varying from some of the more hands-on routes, to simple plug & play. It's horses for courses at the end of the day, as no two solutions are identical.
I admire Pete's approach and enjoy reading his FB page. This will not be for everyone of course, but it's still possible to get a plug & play solution from a number of sources. AS is the factory recommended route, but as has been discussed others exist too.
I will always back the AB product as not only is it completely plug & play (and yes Factory, the new chassis changes are accommodated too, so no issue there), but it also provided a number of upgrades and saved me money. "Buy cheap, buy twice" only applies if you don't buy correctly
It's perfectly straight forwards to save many thousands of pounds on a well spec'd, well developed package, with full supplier support, that will fit an Ult without issue.
The beauty here is choice and that's another key aspect of the build that needs to be considered. The Factory cater very well for those wanting a specific product, but the market place is sizable (and growing it seems) for other companies offering alternative, very advanced & well developed options.
As others have said there are plenty of options out there, varying from some of the more hands-on routes, to simple plug & play. It's horses for courses at the end of the day, as no two solutions are identical.
I admire Pete's approach and enjoy reading his FB page. This will not be for everyone of course, but it's still possible to get a plug & play solution from a number of sources. AS is the factory recommended route, but as has been discussed others exist too.
I will always back the AB product as not only is it completely plug & play (and yes Factory, the new chassis changes are accommodated too, so no issue there), but it also provided a number of upgrades and saved me money. "Buy cheap, buy twice" only applies if you don't buy correctly
It's perfectly straight forwards to save many thousands of pounds on a well spec'd, well developed package, with full supplier support, that will fit an Ult without issue.The beauty here is choice and that's another key aspect of the build that needs to be considered. The Factory cater very well for those wanting a specific product, but the market place is sizable (and growing it seems) for other companies offering alternative, very advanced & well developed options.
356Speedster said:
It's perfectly straight forwards to save many thousands of pounds on a well spec'd, well developed package, with full supplier support, that will fit an Ult without issue.
The beauty here is choice and that's another key aspect of the build that needs to be considered. The Factory cater very well for those wanting a specific product, but the market place is sizable (and growing it seems) for other companies offering alternative, very advanced & well developed options.
What builders need in order to make an informed judgement are FACTS.... How much exactly can a builder save by purchasing from someone other than American Speed ? Do these other suppliers state exactly what is contained in their package so that people can make a comparison ? The other suppliers need to have a published "menu" of choices and a firm price, for an engine that will be dynoed with the loom that they will supply and is guaranteed to pass emissions and IVA before I would consider them as competition for American Speed.The beauty here is choice and that's another key aspect of the build that needs to be considered. The Factory cater very well for those wanting a specific product, but the market place is sizable (and growing it seems) for other companies offering alternative, very advanced & well developed options.
Older readers may remember the spreadsheet that I produced on here a few years ago, that showed EXACTLY down to the last penny what it cost me to build my LS7 Ultima..... Perhaps there is someone out there who has not used American Speed, and who is prepared to tell us all how much money they saved by purchasing somewhere else.
Best of luck, to all builders, whatever you decide !
I'm happy to talk money and this is probably (and I'm only guessing here) the cheapest route to an LS3 install ...I am Scottish so I always take the canny (read 'tight fisted') approach.
List of items:
LS3 (435hp) crate engine
GM CTS-V ancillaries (the cts-v ones mount the alternator low down which gives more room)
GM ECU, loom and fly by wire pedal
(all the above were from PWP)
Cable and other small items to make the standard GM loom work
All the braided hoses for the top of the engine (this was not necessary but looks better than black rubber)
Oil sensor adaptor and A/C adaptor (from AB)
All the exhaust parts for me to weld up a full system ( I know not everyone can do this but I can it and saves A LOT of £'s)
GM shallow sump. I had to get this because my crate engine arrived with a deep sump for some reason...but in most cases the crate engine comes with the shallow one so you can knock £450 off my total at the bottom if you don't have to replace it.
Total for all the above: £7100 give or take £200 in case I've forgotten anything.
Also I fully intend to cam the engine after its IVA and then I will get it mapped so you could add another £1500 for all that to give you a grand total of:
£8600 for a 550'ish' bhp engine setup and remember that's INCLUDING the exhaust (which is normally £2500 to £3000 off the shelf) and the extra £450 for the sump.
That lays it out fairly straight for a crate engine install, so, what is the approximate cost for the above in a plug and play version....anyone?
List of items:
LS3 (435hp) crate engine
GM CTS-V ancillaries (the cts-v ones mount the alternator low down which gives more room)
GM ECU, loom and fly by wire pedal
(all the above were from PWP)
Cable and other small items to make the standard GM loom work
All the braided hoses for the top of the engine (this was not necessary but looks better than black rubber)
Oil sensor adaptor and A/C adaptor (from AB)
All the exhaust parts for me to weld up a full system ( I know not everyone can do this but I can it and saves A LOT of £'s)
GM shallow sump. I had to get this because my crate engine arrived with a deep sump for some reason...but in most cases the crate engine comes with the shallow one so you can knock £450 off my total at the bottom if you don't have to replace it.
Total for all the above: £7100 give or take £200 in case I've forgotten anything.
Also I fully intend to cam the engine after its IVA and then I will get it mapped so you could add another £1500 for all that to give you a grand total of:
£8600 for a 550'ish' bhp engine setup and remember that's INCLUDING the exhaust (which is normally £2500 to £3000 off the shelf) and the extra £450 for the sump.
That lays it out fairly straight for a crate engine install, so, what is the approximate cost for the above in a plug and play version....anyone?
pilbeam_mp62 said:
What builders need in order to make an informed judgement are FACTS.... How much exactly can a builder save by purchasing from someone other than American Speed ? Do these other suppliers state exactly what is contained in their package so that people can make a comparison ? The other suppliers need to have a published "menu" of choices and a firm price, for an engine that will be dynoed with the loom that they will supply and is guaranteed to pass emissions and IVA before I would consider them as competition for American Speed.
Older readers may remember the spreadsheet that I produced on here a few years ago, that showed EXACTLY down to the last penny what it cost me to build my LS7 Ultima..... Perhaps there is someone out there who has not used American Speed, and who is prepared to tell us all how much money they saved by purchasing somewhere else.
Best of luck, to all builders, whatever you decide !
What makes you think the other suppliers don't offer full visibility on prices / options? Call them!! My savings in the engine dept were over £2K (2011-13 build period, everything back of the bulkhead except suspension, brakes & fuel tanks.... prices may now have changed), all plug & play, dyno'd, guaranteed IVA pass and with a number of upgrades not offered by AS / factory.Older readers may remember the spreadsheet that I produced on here a few years ago, that showed EXACTLY down to the last penny what it cost me to build my LS7 Ultima..... Perhaps there is someone out there who has not used American Speed, and who is prepared to tell us all how much money they saved by purchasing somewhere else.
Best of luck, to all builders, whatever you decide !
Pls don't get me wrong, everyone has to choose their own path for their own reasons, but as much as some don't want to hear it, there are comparable options out there and savings to be had.
Interestingly, I see AS have just removed all prices from their website and changed it to Price on Request!
chucknorris said:
That's interesting stuff Dom, i'm not sure if building the headers out of lego first will quite suit my style of exhaust building which is usually: Measure, cut, throw away, remeasure, cut again and tack to the last piece i got right.
As for JP, doh! i called them yesterday to price up 4 into 1 collectors, i didn't think to ask about a system...i just assumed it would be a no as it's too unique!
the guys at jp have built ultima headers already.. the cars kyle built of 4 into 1 into 2 was my idea as i felt it was a way to quieten the noise for track use having 4 exhausts .As for JP, doh! i called them yesterday to price up 4 into 1 collectors, i didn't think to ask about a system...i just assumed it would be a no as it's too unique!
JP made it and i think have had 4 cars including mine up there..
they are a great bunch of guys and im lucky they are 1/2 mile from me as we use them all teh time for exhaust repairs at the garage i work
dom
Dom: I've just talked to JP, and yes, Jim is a nice guy and very helpful, however i wish he was close to me as he needs the car there to do the job as he doesn't have jigs to make up sets of headers AND of course most of our cars are subtly different which makes it harder to make an off the peg system.
Because i'm north of Edinburgh, taking the car to JP would be just too much hassle, so i'm definitely going to do my own system and since exhausts are part of my business, i have plenty of people to ask about the technical stuff.
To start off, I have done a CAD drawing for the exhaust flanges and i'm going to get 3 sets laser cut in 10mm stainless steel (it's more cost effective to get 3 sets), so if anyone is interested, PM me, otherwise the spare ones will go on Ebay.
Keep an eye on my engine build diary mentioned earlier on this thread for the progress on the exhaust as it happens.
Because i'm north of Edinburgh, taking the car to JP would be just too much hassle, so i'm definitely going to do my own system and since exhausts are part of my business, i have plenty of people to ask about the technical stuff.
To start off, I have done a CAD drawing for the exhaust flanges and i'm going to get 3 sets laser cut in 10mm stainless steel (it's more cost effective to get 3 sets), so if anyone is interested, PM me, otherwise the spare ones will go on Ebay.
Keep an eye on my engine build diary mentioned earlier on this thread for the progress on the exhaust as it happens.
In the grand scheme of things £2k is not a substantial amount and may be reflected in the sale value versus a Factory system.
The saving, however, is not the reason that most go elsewhere. The fact that most of us want to build our own car suggests that we do not want to follow the norm. We have a tendency to seek out a 'different way'. We all have different reasons for our decisions but we are free to make those decisions.
Enjoy what ever route you decide to take.
Paul
The saving, however, is not the reason that most go elsewhere. The fact that most of us want to build our own car suggests that we do not want to follow the norm. We have a tendency to seek out a 'different way'. We all have different reasons for our decisions but we are free to make those decisions.
Enjoy what ever route you decide to take.
Paul
I think financial is actually a very big consideration Paul. £2k may not be big in the grand scheme of things as you say , but saving £2k will pay for the exhaust, brakes or other large item and can make the difference between getting a car on the road at the right time or having to wait until perhaps the following year for a lot of builders.
There are lots of good alternatives out there, want the only proven world record breaking spec factory approved, go AS, want the same plus some lovely made shiny bits, go AB. Do it yourself, PWP.
All routes will be good if done right.
There are lots of good alternatives out there, want the only proven world record breaking spec factory approved, go AS, want the same plus some lovely made shiny bits, go AB. Do it yourself, PWP.
All routes will be good if done right.
Or as with my build make it a real mongrel - Factory, AB & PWP for the main parts and the US/UK for more specific parts. Dont forget when sourcing take the time to look in the US, I've found the same parts in the US that are, after shipping at least a 3rd cheaper than in the UK. Careful on total value though or you'll fall foul of import duties.
£2K is certainly substantial, especially when you consider how many upgraded / custom parts went into engine bay (e.g. twin-turbo 'box, fuel system, exhaust, etc). If it was a more std build, the saving could have been more. Over the course of the entire build there were further savings, so I'm happy with that.
As an alternative to the classic V8, early in my build I explored the possibility of using electric drive combined with the use a 'H' fuel cell. Needless to say that solution needed £££ and I abandoned the idea as my wallet was not deep enough and the technology was not really available off the shelf, nor is the solution ready for use. Biggest problem is hydrogen and how to make it easily and cheaply.
Needless to say I'm back in the V8 and petrol fold with perhaps the use of the new Gen V LT1.
Needless to say I'm back in the V8 and petrol fold with perhaps the use of the new Gen V LT1.
Ultima factory said:
There is not a £2k saving for a comparable plug and play package by any other supplier.
I'm sorry, but mine was and my bank balance showed this vs the AS option. Not wishing to argue or be inflammatory, but this was the way it was. Maybe prices have changed in the 18mths since my build (AS prices are no longer shown on the website, to it's hard to say now), or there's now more flexible pricing over the factory prices quoted during my build period?As I've said, horses for courses, we're all HUGE Ultima supporters, but options exist to suit everyone's needs & budget and this is all great for the brand & owners
Ultima factory said:
We will happily beat any quotation for a plug and play package from any other supplier.
Guaranteed. All a potential customer has to do is send the factory their alternative plug and play quotation.
Regards to all,
Fair play, always good to hear a collaborative approach from a supplier to customers.... shame there's nothing I need currently (except a brake fluid reservoir cap) Guaranteed. All a potential customer has to do is send the factory their alternative plug and play quotation.
Regards to all,
My 2cents:
I JUST finished ordering my drivetrain, so I thought I'd chime in.. I compared both the AS and AB packages, and both are STANDOUT... Both are plug and play, and both can be customized further (depending on how much $$ you are willing to dole out to AS/AB)...
If you go AS: You order the engine from AS, and it is supplied with everything you need, and the rest is supplied by Ultima.. you DONT need to get anything else... AS engine matches with the Ultima headers/exhaust, wire loom, etc etc...
If you go AB: you order the engine and the rest of the kit from AB for a true 'plug and play' - ie: the engine, drive kit, sump pan, engine mounts, headers, exhaust system... If you take it all from AB, then everything fits and can be plugged in without any issues...
Now if you want AB engine, with the Ultima headers/exhaust (which are lower than AB's), then you are talking about modifications, etc which will not be PnP...
Given all the above (from my limited understanding, which may be wrong, and if it is wrong I do apologize in advance to AS/AB/Ultima) and my personal choice based on budget (need to buy other things as well besides a drivetrain), I ended up going the AS route as it worked out cheaper - about 1.5K cheaper if you look at the whole package above without modifications... This is NOT to say AB's system was not great, as they have AWESOME products.. and I have ordered quite a few other items from them as well which can be seen on my build site... I just did not need the extra bling in the engine department, as I want to spend that $$ elsewhere...
Again, my 2cents
I JUST finished ordering my drivetrain, so I thought I'd chime in.. I compared both the AS and AB packages, and both are STANDOUT... Both are plug and play, and both can be customized further (depending on how much $$ you are willing to dole out to AS/AB)...
If you go AS: You order the engine from AS, and it is supplied with everything you need, and the rest is supplied by Ultima.. you DONT need to get anything else... AS engine matches with the Ultima headers/exhaust, wire loom, etc etc...
If you go AB: you order the engine and the rest of the kit from AB for a true 'plug and play' - ie: the engine, drive kit, sump pan, engine mounts, headers, exhaust system... If you take it all from AB, then everything fits and can be plugged in without any issues...
Now if you want AB engine, with the Ultima headers/exhaust (which are lower than AB's), then you are talking about modifications, etc which will not be PnP...
Given all the above (from my limited understanding, which may be wrong, and if it is wrong I do apologize in advance to AS/AB/Ultima) and my personal choice based on budget (need to buy other things as well besides a drivetrain), I ended up going the AS route as it worked out cheaper - about 1.5K cheaper if you look at the whole package above without modifications... This is NOT to say AB's system was not great, as they have AWESOME products.. and I have ordered quite a few other items from them as well which can be seen on my build site... I just did not need the extra bling in the engine department, as I want to spend that $$ elsewhere...
Again, my 2cents
It's great to get some feed back about the AS/AB packages as to what you get, however I'm sure I speak for all the builders who have yet to reach the engine buying stage, but what are the prices they are quoting for which engine package?
This is not giving away any "secret" information from these companies it's just letting everyone know the current difference between plug'n'play and the more labour intensive route. So come on, what is the current package price?
This is not giving away any "secret" information from these companies it's just letting everyone know the current difference between plug'n'play and the more labour intensive route. So come on, what is the current package price?
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff