Power - they are overtaking us
Discussion
I do not know if the moulds used for the current body could be used for carbon panels.
I do know that the moulds have a limited life expectancy and have to be replaced after X number of bodies.
If it is possible, what would a body cost?
If it is not possible, what would the moulds cost?
Paul
I do know that the moulds have a limited life expectancy and have to be replaced after X number of bodies.
If it is possible, what would a body cost?
If it is not possible, what would the moulds cost?
Paul
""The issue with a constantly changing car like the Ultima is how do you NOT p!ss of your current customers? Even with the chassis there must have been people that bought a kit one day and the next the new chassis was available. How do you manage that? Yeah you could offer the new component to all the older customers but were do you draw the line?""
that's what happened to me!, very annoying at the time!
that's what happened to me!, very annoying at the time!
Andy, I guess the question that needs to be asked as a group is – “Are the current ultima molds up to the job of producing carbon panels”
Having been through the tribulations of mold development over the last 9 months for the 40, there is a lot of work in it. Probably more than most people realise, and is a significant cost for the factory to absorb if the current mold’s are not up to standard.
As stated before I had a quote for a carbon 40 body at 2.4 times the glass body. I don’t know what ultima could do, and this was using the same crappy molds that I was going to use for a 40 body.
Here you can see the other side of the carbon clip for the 40, note the join lines in the mold, you can probably guess how this clip was constructed
Bandage jointed panel – more clues to the construction method, yes laid up as individual panels and joined as an assembly post cure.
this was largely done due to the size of the mold return edges. I.e. it was possible to do using the standard fibre glass molds. Possible to do using a gelcoat finish. The above clip could probably have its join lines filled with more gel coat and finished to the same standard as the Ultima bodys are. The GT40 bodies are a bit more complicated due to the air intake into the rear window which creates a closed loop in the mold making vacume bagging impossible if laid up as a single part.
The mold I have has been modified such that the close loop would need to be added later with a second part that gets bonded in.
I have also added some rotisseries to the mold to make layup easier. This is part of the reason it has taken 9 months to get 3 bodies out of them, as it took a few months to fix some of that stuff.
I think if I was to produce a body as nice as Andy’s I would need to add return edges similar to this one below, as I simply don’t have enough area around the edge of the wheel wells or wheel edge to get a nice finish on the bag and get a good seal.
note the size of the board that has been added to the inner edge of the wheel arch that will form the edge of the mold ones its constructed. This sort of stuff may need to be added to the ultima molds if a proper carbon body is to be produced.
If anyone is thinking about it, I would suggest you get in contact with the factory and ask, what would need to be done. Better still, get a group of you together and express an interest to Ultima so that they at least have an idea of numbers so that they can start to apportion costs of mold development across a couple of bodies.
One last question for those that have done vacuum bagged parts, Is it smelly when under cure/production or is the smell largely contained.
I’m keen to have a go, just don’t want to annoy the neighbours or pose a health risk to the rest of the family, need to know if I am likely to need some factory space in the short term.
Regards Ryan
Having been through the tribulations of mold development over the last 9 months for the 40, there is a lot of work in it. Probably more than most people realise, and is a significant cost for the factory to absorb if the current mold’s are not up to standard.
As stated before I had a quote for a carbon 40 body at 2.4 times the glass body. I don’t know what ultima could do, and this was using the same crappy molds that I was going to use for a 40 body.
Here you can see the other side of the carbon clip for the 40, note the join lines in the mold, you can probably guess how this clip was constructed
Bandage jointed panel – more clues to the construction method, yes laid up as individual panels and joined as an assembly post cure.
this was largely done due to the size of the mold return edges. I.e. it was possible to do using the standard fibre glass molds. Possible to do using a gelcoat finish. The above clip could probably have its join lines filled with more gel coat and finished to the same standard as the Ultima bodys are. The GT40 bodies are a bit more complicated due to the air intake into the rear window which creates a closed loop in the mold making vacume bagging impossible if laid up as a single part.
The mold I have has been modified such that the close loop would need to be added later with a second part that gets bonded in.
I have also added some rotisseries to the mold to make layup easier. This is part of the reason it has taken 9 months to get 3 bodies out of them, as it took a few months to fix some of that stuff.
I think if I was to produce a body as nice as Andy’s I would need to add return edges similar to this one below, as I simply don’t have enough area around the edge of the wheel wells or wheel edge to get a nice finish on the bag and get a good seal.
note the size of the board that has been added to the inner edge of the wheel arch that will form the edge of the mold ones its constructed. This sort of stuff may need to be added to the ultima molds if a proper carbon body is to be produced.
If anyone is thinking about it, I would suggest you get in contact with the factory and ask, what would need to be done. Better still, get a group of you together and express an interest to Ultima so that they at least have an idea of numbers so that they can start to apportion costs of mold development across a couple of bodies.
One last question for those that have done vacuum bagged parts, Is it smelly when under cure/production or is the smell largely contained.
I’m keen to have a go, just don’t want to annoy the neighbours or pose a health risk to the rest of the family, need to know if I am likely to need some factory space in the short term.
Regards Ryan
ezakimak said:
Andy, I guess the question that needs to be asked as a group is – “Are the current ultima molds up to the job of producing carbon panels”
this was largely done due to the size of the mold return edges. I.e. it was possible to do using the standard fibre glass molds. Possible to do using a gelcoat finish. The above clip could probably have its join lines filled with more gel coat and finished to the same standard as the Ultima bodys are. The GT40 bodies are a bit more complicated due to the air intake into the rear window which creates a closed loop in the mold making vacume bagging impossible if laid up as a single part.
The mold I have has been modified such that the close loop would need to be added later with a second part that gets bonded in.
I have also added some rotisseries to the mold to make layup easier. This is part of the reason it has taken 9 months to get 3 bodies out of them, as it took a few months to fix some of that stuff.
One last question for those that have done vacuum bagged parts, Is it smelly when under cure/production or is the smell largely contained.
I’m keen to have a go, just don’t want to annoy the neighbours or pose a health risk to the rest of the family, need to know if I am likely to need some factory space in the short term.
Regards Ryan
Ive picked a couple of you comments to answer...this was largely done due to the size of the mold return edges. I.e. it was possible to do using the standard fibre glass molds. Possible to do using a gelcoat finish. The above clip could probably have its join lines filled with more gel coat and finished to the same standard as the Ultima bodys are. The GT40 bodies are a bit more complicated due to the air intake into the rear window which creates a closed loop in the mold making vacume bagging impossible if laid up as a single part.
The mold I have has been modified such that the close loop would need to be added later with a second part that gets bonded in.
I have also added some rotisseries to the mold to make layup easier. This is part of the reason it has taken 9 months to get 3 bodies out of them, as it took a few months to fix some of that stuff.
One last question for those that have done vacuum bagged parts, Is it smelly when under cure/production or is the smell largely contained.
I’m keen to have a go, just don’t want to annoy the neighbours or pose a health risk to the rest of the family, need to know if I am likely to need some factory space in the short term.
Regards Ryan
Firstly the tub on my noble has a large air intake, and I managed to make it in a single vac formed part... it just has to be a split mould. My rear clam has loads of intakes etc making it the most complex and was a 12 part mould... but the part is a single piece.
I made some of the parts in the kitchen and later I converted one of the kids rooms (after they left home lol) to a carbon fibre room as epoxy is odorless
My moulds cost me around £10k in materials although they were a lot of work but they are very high quality and could go in an oven they don't have to be. I have pulled carbon parts from normal GF moulds, as its all in the release agents, the post cure doesn't have to go that high.
XBOW said:
First time I've seen that kind of comparison...thanks for that
I've followed your threads with interest on the Noble forums, to a point of investigating further CF costs, techniques etc. I soon realised I didn't have the time or patience to do it justice
Back to original OP's point. With 3 secs 0-60 becoming the norm for super cars the gap between the likes of Ultimas, caterhams, Atoms etc is diminishing in terms of performance. However analogue vs digital will always have its place.
I think a 0-60 benchmark is virtually pointless with current supercars. Can you feel the difference between 3 and 3.5? Not really. 0-100 plus, or 60-100 is more indicative.I've followed your threads with interest on the Noble forums, to a point of investigating further CF costs, techniques etc. I soon realised I didn't have the time or patience to do it justice
Back to original OP's point. With 3 secs 0-60 becoming the norm for super cars the gap between the likes of Ultimas, caterhams, Atoms etc is diminishing in terms of performance. However analogue vs digital will always have its place.
Edited by XBOW on Monday 2nd March 22:16
All our light cars had an advantage up till recently, but modern TC systems and clever gearboxes make it relatively easy for mainstream supercars to do those sort of times.
The factory from memory have answered the carbon question before.
I believe it was their position that the current moulds were not suitable for CF and the cost of tooling for new would be prohibitive.
Of course if enough people stumped up pre-orders and could absorb the initial costs the factory could offer CF panels/clams as an "upgrade" option to new buyers.
So to make moulds commercially say £25,000???
Then there's the question of construction, are you going for just the lightness or are you wanting the neat V weave and straight edges, the former will need painting or a gel coat the latter will need a clear coat process.
the latter will also need a lot more care and attention to detail and thus be even more expensive to produce!
It would be an interesting exercise to cost out but I fear a fair chunk more than most expect.
I believe it was their position that the current moulds were not suitable for CF and the cost of tooling for new would be prohibitive.
Of course if enough people stumped up pre-orders and could absorb the initial costs the factory could offer CF panels/clams as an "upgrade" option to new buyers.
So to make moulds commercially say £25,000???
Then there's the question of construction, are you going for just the lightness or are you wanting the neat V weave and straight edges, the former will need painting or a gel coat the latter will need a clear coat process.
the latter will also need a lot more care and attention to detail and thus be even more expensive to produce!
It would be an interesting exercise to cost out but I fear a fair chunk more than most expect.
So a part share in £25k of moulds and probably close to £20,000 to produce the CF body work to reduce the weight by 48kg. I can understand why the factory thinks this is too cost prohibitive... But would look super cool!
A bike based v8 motor is 200kg saving 57kg on my ls7 V8 but only generates 500bhp, costs £40k+ And needs rebuilding every 40 hours (plus standing 45 mins warmup before use)
I have not weighed the wheels but suspect they are around 27kgish with tyre since that was the weight of some large 18s I recently sold and posted. So you may be able to saving 10kg a corner,for some lightweight carbon fibre based ones costing
£7600+.
So, excluding any potential weight savings on the chassis, I have saved about 150kg on 975kg car but cost £50+k on the build to get around 600bhp/ton.
If I put an AS 1000bhp engine in a standard build, I would be immediately at 1000bhp/ton ...
I not quite sure why it's just a weight thing, the porsch 918 weighing in at 1.7t gets round the ring in 6:57, whereas a Radical SR8 weighing in at 680kg only manages 6:55....
The carbon clip for the GT40 was produced in a standard mold that is used to produce fibre glass parts, it was not vac bagged and was a standard wet layup of Gelcoat,CSM and Twil. it achieves approximately 50% weight saving, other than the extra material cost and layup time no extra expense was incurred.
how much is a standard Ultima body these days, price list has been removed of the factory website?
I would think a carbon body to achieve the weight saving could be done for between 5k and 10k pounds. at this price it would have the standard gelcoat outer.
Ryan
how much is a standard Ultima body these days, price list has been removed of the factory website?
I would think a carbon body to achieve the weight saving could be done for between 5k and 10k pounds. at this price it would have the standard gelcoat outer.
Ryan
As carbon technology advances and production is ramped up it will become cheaper.
Personally I would not want to see the weave on the whole body but only on 'highlights'.
If the major manufacturers could achieve a 10% weight saving with very few changes other than in materials, they would jump at it. As weight reduces, handling dynamics improve.
I know we have to be realistic and the Factory has limited resources, but I don't think that fitting 1000hp engine in an Ultima is the answer. That sort of power in a road car with no driver aids is an accident waiting to happen IMO (track car - fine).
All the different opinions and thoughts on this thread show there may be a demand, if it could be achieved at a reasonable price.
Paul
Personally I would not want to see the weave on the whole body but only on 'highlights'.
If the major manufacturers could achieve a 10% weight saving with very few changes other than in materials, they would jump at it. As weight reduces, handling dynamics improve.
I know we have to be realistic and the Factory has limited resources, but I don't think that fitting 1000hp engine in an Ultima is the answer. That sort of power in a road car with no driver aids is an accident waiting to happen IMO (track car - fine).
All the different opinions and thoughts on this thread show there may be a demand, if it could be achieved at a reasonable price.
Paul
Just another thought. One of the reasons some of the weights are creeping up is because many builders are going their own way, and not following factory build. All our choice of course, but by adding what we feel are niceties like carpet, soundproofing etc it adds weight. Carpet and soundproofing can easily be 20kg, if you paint that's probably another 15kg, stereo and other electronic stuff 10kg.
We don't need it, but want it. Want the less simplistic approach, but don't want the weight, it's all a compromise. I wanted all the bits I've added on mine, knowing full well it would add 30+kg to the overall weight, but I was happy with that. I've been the lightweight route to the nth degree in a westfield with titanium fasteners all round and it becomes more of an obsession than something each part creating a tangible improvement. Collectively lightweight parts add up to something tangible, individually it's obviously less effective.
So a carbon body would be lovely, but you'd want the lightweight wheels and everything else to make the most of your investment.
We don't need it, but want it. Want the less simplistic approach, but don't want the weight, it's all a compromise. I wanted all the bits I've added on mine, knowing full well it would add 30+kg to the overall weight, but I was happy with that. I've been the lightweight route to the nth degree in a westfield with titanium fasteners all round and it becomes more of an obsession than something each part creating a tangible improvement. Collectively lightweight parts add up to something tangible, individually it's obviously less effective.
So a carbon body would be lovely, but you'd want the lightweight wheels and everything else to make the most of your investment.
tjlees said:
So a part share in £25k of moulds and probably close to £20,000 to produce the CF body work to reduce the weight by 48kg. I can understand why the factory thinks this is too cost prohibitive... But would look super cool!
A bike based v8 motor is 200kg saving 57kg on my ls7 V8 but only generates 500bhp, costs £40k+ And needs rebuilding every 40 hours (plus standing 45 mins warmup before use)
I have not weighed the wheels but suspect they are around 27kgish with tyre since that was the weight of some large 18s I recently sold and posted. So you may be able to saving 10kg a corner,for some lightweight carbon fibre based ones costing
£7600+.
So, excluding any potential weight savings on the chassis, I have saved about 150kg on 975kg car but cost £50+k on the build to get around 600bhp/ton.
If I put an AS 1000bhp engine in a standard build, I would be immediately at 1000bhp/ton ...
I not quite sure why it's just a weight thing, the Porsche 918 weighing in at 1.7t gets round the ring in 6:57, whereas a Radical SR8 weighing in at 680kg only manages 6:55....
yeah I agree more power is the best route(cheapest as well), you can get traction control systems with some ecu kits, I have it for my old vetteA bike based v8 motor is 200kg saving 57kg on my ls7 V8 but only generates 500bhp, costs £40k+ And needs rebuilding every 40 hours (plus standing 45 mins warmup before use)
I have not weighed the wheels but suspect they are around 27kgish with tyre since that was the weight of some large 18s I recently sold and posted. So you may be able to saving 10kg a corner,for some lightweight carbon fibre based ones costing
£7600+.
So, excluding any potential weight savings on the chassis, I have saved about 150kg on 975kg car but cost £50+k on the build to get around 600bhp/ton.
If I put an AS 1000bhp engine in a standard build, I would be immediately at 1000bhp/ton ...
I not quite sure why it's just a weight thing, the Porsche 918 weighing in at 1.7t gets round the ring in 6:57, whereas a Radical SR8 weighing in at 680kg only manages 6:55....
I requested that the factory make us a special GTR lightweight body back in 2013, and Ted very kindly produced one, he said the first one made, although I think he's produced another one since. The factory were very helpful indeed at the time, but then they always are..
It's still completely manufactured in fibreglass, with all the appropriate structural strengthening where it needs to be. The body is not the easiest thing to weigh accurately, but would estimate the saving to be about 25kg - which is very significant to me.
Given the big weight saving, the body finish and fit is excellent, certainly just as good looking and well made as our other body
Personally I just don't like the look of carbon fibre weave, but everyone is different...
Mentioning this to remind folks to just "ask the factory", they've been perfecting stuff over many years and seem to have looked at most things before, not caught them out yet.
It's still completely manufactured in fibreglass, with all the appropriate structural strengthening where it needs to be. The body is not the easiest thing to weigh accurately, but would estimate the saving to be about 25kg - which is very significant to me.
Given the big weight saving, the body finish and fit is excellent, certainly just as good looking and well made as our other body
Personally I just don't like the look of carbon fibre weave, but everyone is different...
Mentioning this to remind folks to just "ask the factory", they've been perfecting stuff over many years and seem to have looked at most things before, not caught them out yet.
drivin_me_nuts said:
I can see the next open day...
'I took 20kgs off the road weight of my Ultima.'
'How? Lighter wheels, cf body?'
'Nope. Diet.'
.. And run with a max of fifty litres of fuel and you've saved 50kg and money 'I took 20kgs off the road weight of my Ultima.'
'How? Lighter wheels, cf body?'
'Nope. Diet.'
Given the Lamborghini Aventador 700bhp is 1:16.5 round the topgear track v 1:09.9 from an ultima GTR 720 what do we think the ring time would be?
Since the Ferrari enzo does the ring in 7:25.7 and the topgear circuit in 1:19.0, suggests the Ultima would do the ring in the 6:45 to 47 region, which given the Ultima's top speed v a Radical (175 on gearing) sounds at least possible.
I know I'm using man maths, but at least the topgear times show that you have to spend serious money on a hypercar to get anywhere near and ultima 720 let alone ultima 1000 or anything in between.
Sorry to go slightly off-topic but has the record breaking GTR 720hp measured at the wheels or at the flywheel because in between those there are always a few dead ones... It is not uncommon that there are BIG differences with American hp-numbers and European ones.
Edited by Mertens on Wednesday 4th March 19:22
Edited by Mertens on Wednesday 4th March 19:23
Mertens said:
Sorry to go slightly offv topic but has the record breaking GTR had 720hp measured at the wheel or at the flywheel because in between those there are always a few dead ones...
At the fly wheel (for mine) - so you are probably losing 15% in the transmission etc ... But this is the same for mass production cars as wellMertens said:
tjlees said:
At the fly wheel (for mine) - so you are probably losing 15% in the transmission etc ... But this is the same for mass production cars as well
So you'd been looking at about 620 hp at the wheels ?tjlees said:
Since the Ferrari enzo does the ring in 7:25.7 and the topgear circuit in 1:19.0, suggests the Ultima would do the ring in the 6:45 to 47 region, which given the Ultima's top speed v a Radical (175 on gearing) sounds at least possible.
6:45 round the ring? I highly doubt it. To my knowledge there is no documented proof (youtube et al) of an Ultima GTR lapping the ring in even 7:45, or even 7:45 BTG (bridge to gantry) which is even slower.Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff