Long front wishbones available now at The Ultima factory

Long front wishbones available now at The Ultima factory

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V8Dom

Original Poster:

3,546 posts

201 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
I have been having a long chat with Richard about converting my car to the long wishbone type as used by the record car. My car is an older car built at the same time as Trevors and the record car and has alot of development options not seen nowadays such as anti roll bars and different exhaust headers, opened air ducts etc, so a little bit special.

Today The Ultima Factory have emailed me some prices, which i feel is worth sharing with everyone on here as it has been on some wish lists talked about on other posts.

Stig i dont know how to add this to the Factory options sticky, and i hope im not breaking any rules by sharing out this info. i was sent to me privately and im sharing it.

The Ultima factory are now happy to supply the longer wishbones for a new build and for excisting customers to convert to, but it will be a rose joint setup not bush, so if you are bushed, rose joints will need to be added... All prices are excluding vat.

Excisting build

Extended front upper and lower rosejoint wishbones £390.00
Upper and lower ball joint set £84.00
Special steering arms - pair £98.00
Tie rod extended 2off £84.00
Dowel pin £0.76
Outer wheel rim 2off £394.00
Inner wheel rim 2off £368.00
Wheel O-ring 4off £8.00

SUB TOTAL £1,426.76
VAT @ 20.00% £285.35
TOTAL VALUE £1,712.11


New build

Extended front upper and lower rosejoint wishbones EXTRA COST £-
Upper and lower ball joint set EXTRA COST £-
Special steering arms - pair EXTRA COST £34.00
Tie rod extended 2off EXTRA COST £-
Dowel pin EXTRA COST £-
Outer wheel rim 2off EXTRA COST £-
Inner wheel rim 2off EXTRA COST £-
Wheel O-ring 4off EXTRA COST £-

SUB TOTAL £34.00
VAT @ 20.00% £6.80
TOTAL VALUE £40.80

Richard also wanted to explain to me some questions i had relating to the wishbones and wheels on our demo car the Ultima GTR720- so i thought seeing as its a hot subject on another post id share his answer with you all.

The factory are constantly trying different ideas that might improve the Ultima in terms of performance, road manners or ease of build many of which prove to be ineffectual and are therefore abandoned.
Longer wishbones with longer track rods and different wheel offsets were tried on the demo GTR to determine what affect they had.
The resulting test concluded that there was no difference to performance, cornering, lap time or steering feedback when compared with the standard front suspension so these tests were terminated.
Had there been an improvement in any of the performance criteria then rest assured that the factory would have added this set up to the option list.
Having invested in a set of longer wishbones, steering tie rods and two sets of different wheels the decision was made to leave this set up on the car for an extended period to investigate if there was any difference in tyre wear.
There has been no recorded difference on this score either but we thought that due to the cost of the different parts we might as well leave this set up on this car for the time being.

Over the years we have come to the conclusion that there is only one way to prove or disprove theory in design and that is to go out and try it in a road environment where our cars spend the majority of their time or against the stopwatch, which we have repeatedly carried out with world record achieving results.

There are many enthusiasts and ‘would be’ sports car manufacturers worldwide that appear to specialise in making wild unsubstantiated claims on forums about their unfinished projects without any back up whatsoever.
“When the flag drops the bullst stops,” says it all.
All Ultima lap times and performance figures are independently verified and recorded using GPS and video evidence.

So guys, here they are.... You wanted them, and our makers have been listening. The option you have all been talking about for years...

Dom




Edited by V8Dom on Thursday 2nd April 11:11

deadscoob

2,263 posts

259 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
If there's no difference I am happy to swap my normal setup for Richards so they can revert to standard without cost wink

dandare

957 posts

253 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
Am I missing something? Why are the longer wishbones being offered if they don't do anything?

DHGTR

1,196 posts

242 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
+1 Dan

corvettedave

274 posts

156 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
yeah agree, there must be some form of benefit, or why bother selling them???

Storer

5,024 posts

214 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
The answer to the question 'why sell them' is simple.

The customer is always right.

If you want to spend some money on something you think will improve your car then I am sure the Factory will be happy to assist. No skin off their nose as it is not detrimental to the car, and they are in business to make money.


Paul

DHGTR

1,196 posts

242 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
in that case I'm selling my spare steering wheel which is rated to 300mph ................. but you may not see any difference .... only £1500

deadscoob

2,263 posts

259 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
Mines rated to 350mph and I'll let it go for £1250

V8Dom

Original Poster:

3,546 posts

201 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
dandare said:
Am I missing something? Why are the longer wishbones being offered if they don't do anything?
because the forums have been asking about them and if available... there have been suggestions it stops bump steer, improves driving on the roads with kumos, and inproves the driving due to the steering arms being longer too... ive asked and the factory have agreed to produce them

running long wishbones will mean the front wheel pivots in the centre of the tyre too, which will make differences in steering and handling due to the Ackerman Steering angles

im ordering them as i want to increase the width of my front wheels to run 285 or 295 front tyres like the time attack car. i love the grip of the kumo but not the road manners.

Ive been in Martins car many times, the steering is neutral, front grip incredible and because of the bigger width wheels toyo r888 is an option all round... and the entry speed into corners is quite staggering.. but thats personal experiance.







V8Dom

Original Poster:

3,546 posts

201 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
Storer said:
The answer to the question 'why sell them' is simple.

The customer is always right.

If you want to spend some money on something you think will improve your car then I am sure the Factory will be happy to assist. No skin off their nose as it is not detrimental to the car, and they are in business to make money.


Paul
do you have them already on yours Paul?





Ult-Jim

624 posts

189 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
My thoughts...before going to extended wishbones, what difference would I notice from bush set up to rose joint set up? The whole bump steer / turn in / understeer debate IMO has a lot on how you drive the light weight performance machine compared to your daily commuting people carrying tank. With my positive recent experience with custom upgraded Penske multi adjustable shocks & springs & associated new setup for my Caterham, I am now interested in exploring the opportunity of a similar development on the Ultima.

Racingroj

488 posts

162 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
quotequote all
I believe the longer wishbones give you other set up options which would not be available on the standard wishbones. As has been said longer wishbones put the wheel pivot point in the centre of the wheel so the steering becomes lighter allowing a more aggressive camber castor set up and therefore more precise hanldling. It would be interesting to know if when the factory tested the longer wishbones if they put the standard castor camber set up on.

deadscoob

2,263 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
So on one side we have the factory saying they make no tangible difference, on the other side we have a few customers who say they do.
Who is correct?

Perhaps a simple yes/no for the below as a starter:

Will they reduce bump steer (and on kumhos too)
Will they reduce steering effort
Will they allow wider tyres without increasing bump steer or effort
Will they increase front end grip on standard size tyres

Dom, are longer wishbones the only difference from standard on the front of Martins?

macgtech

997 posts

158 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
deadscoob said:
So on one side we have the factory saying they make no tangible difference, on the other side we have a few customers who say they do.
Who is correct?

Perhaps a simple yes/no for the below as a starter:

Will they reduce bump steer (and on kumhos too)
Will they reduce steering effort
Will they allow wider tyres without increasing bump steer or effort
Will they increase front end grip on standard size tyres

Dom, are longer wishbones the only difference from standard on the front of Martins?
They do make a difference.

Any chassis engineer worth his salt will tall you that the relationship between the axis of the kingpin and the tyre contact patch is of the utmost importance to handling. We also have back to back comparison data showing a significant difference in cornering speed.

deadscoob

2,263 posts

259 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all

"Longer wishbones with longer track rods and different wheel offsets were tried on the demo GTR to determine what affect they had.
The resulting test concluded that there was no difference to performance, cornering, lap time or steering feedback when compared with the standard front suspension so these tests were terminated.
Had there been an improvement in any of the performance criteria then rest assured that the factory would have added this set up to the option list.
Having invested in a set of longer wishbones, steering tie rods and two sets of different wheels the decision was made to leave this set up on the car for an extended period to investigate if there was any difference in tyre wear.
There has been no recorded difference on this score either but we thought that due to the cost of the different parts we might as well leave this set up on this car for the time being."

Thanks Jonny. Your comments totally contradict the above.

It would be good to have a back to back comparison with 2 identical cars other than the wishbones.



dandare

957 posts

253 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
Yes, thanks Jonny. You've put my mind at rest wink (having just ordered a set from you).
Do the factory ones also allow camber adjustment without taking the suspension apart?

Edited by dandare on Friday 3rd April 09:30

drivin_me_nuts

17,949 posts

210 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
So, there's no difference between normal and long performance/comfort wise, but maybe running wider front tyres makes the longer ones more useful?

F.C.

3,896 posts

207 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
Less scrub radius, so less steering effort.
I wonder is the feedback through the steering lessened significantly also?

Jonny do you have any comment here? ^^^^

I have an idea that (as I have been pondering a new set of wheels for some time) I might fit a set of these mainly for geo adjustability but the downside is I might need to remove the power steering if it all gets too "loose" to the touch.

ETS the thought of fitting a set of 888's makes me feel weak at the knees wink



Edited by F.C. on Friday 3rd April 11:28

V8Dom

Original Poster:

3,546 posts

201 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
deadscoob said:
So on one side we have the factory saying they make no tangible difference, on the other side we have a few customers who say they do.
Who is correct?

Perhaps a simple yes/no for the below as a starter:

Will they reduce bump steer (and on kumhos too)
Will they reduce steering effort
Will they allow wider tyres without increasing bump steer or effort
Will they increase front end grip on standard size tyres

Dom, are longer wishbones the only difference from standard on the front of Martins?
i think they will as the arc of the steering rack end will be less rather than servere like our are now. we have bump steer as the suspension moves a certain distance and the small length trackrod arms move at large angles.....lengthening these arms and the suspension will lessen the angles imo .. when i had dunlop front tyres i did have alot of noticeable pump steer unless i ran my anti roll bars..fitting kumo tyres highlighted a steering problem for me and possibly others...(we have to remember it was Charles Dunn that came up with the idea of the slotted rack and it wasnt in the build manual or setup instruction available until recently) ive just fitted mitchelin tyres which are far better than the pirelli ive tried or dunlops and in the rain fantastic, BUT i want front end grip back, as the kumo did give more confidense within the corner, it was just dangerous in a straightline or on bumpy roads.
I think it will improve
yes, also as the wheel now centres in the centre, the front wheels wont hit the headlight covers
i dont think they will increase front end grip on their own... but it will allow the suspension to work on a bumpy road as the shock will travel more for a given distance of the wheel moving up and down, meaning settings will be more accurate and noticeable. what i dont know is if you need a slightly heavier spring?

no.. the front suspension has stengthening bars on the mounts, the car has flat floor and aero but that doesnt work until higher speeds..... and he runs different shocks.....he also runs 295 width front tyres too..:0) but the difference is entry speed is higher and corner speed very planted where mine will under steer if pushed and only over steering with my right foot .. also with the big tyres steering isnt like cornering in a truck without power steering. its not light so your power steering will be useful, but i prefer feedback in the steering so if i had fitted P/S I would switch it off after 10mph



macgtech

997 posts

158 months

Friday 3rd April 2015
quotequote all
F.C. said:
Less scrub radius, so less steering effort.
I wonder is the feedback through the steering lessened significantly also?

Jonny do you have any comment here? ^^^^

I have an idea that (as I have been pondering a new set of wheels for some time) I might fit a set of these mainly for geo adjustability but the downside is I might need to remove the power steering if it all gets too "loose" to the touch.

ETS the thought of fitting a set of 888's makes me feel weak at the knees wink



Edited by F.C. on Friday 3rd April 11:28
With our kit, the steering is lightened as the scrub radius is reduced as you state above, which inherently reduces feedback. Our kit is designed to allow you to run extra caster to add this feel (and steering weight) back in, which has the added benefit of better camber recovery too when steering.

I can't comment on the factory kit, I haven't seen it. But we have significant data showing an improvement in cornering speed with this modification alone.

It will effectively soften the front wheel rate marginally, but only slightly.