Discussion
Pascal
Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
Racingroj said:
Pascal
Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
I'll second that comment.Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
Paul
Racingroj said:
Pascal
Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
Thanks for the advice. I was already thinking of adding that and/or an accusump.Something no one has mentioned here is that as you intend track day use I would strongly recommend a dry sump system. Cornering forces, especially on long bends, such as Corum at Snetterton, require a dry sump or oil starvation will occur with the obvious consequences. The LS3 needs one adding.
I am curious about the costs these days of getting an LS3 to about 525hp with a dry sump.
When I did the costing there was very little difference between a tweaked LS3 d/s and an LS7.
The 7 had all the 'nice' quality parts in the motor to allow it to rev to 7300 and a bit more torque. With a little tinkering 600+ easily attainable too.
At the time the LS7 was about £8500 + VAT and the LS3 quickly rose to that sort of price with the tweaks.
Paul
When I did the costing there was very little difference between a tweaked LS3 d/s and an LS7.
The 7 had all the 'nice' quality parts in the motor to allow it to rev to 7300 and a bit more torque. With a little tinkering 600+ easily attainable too.
At the time the LS7 was about £8500 + VAT and the LS3 quickly rose to that sort of price with the tweaks.
Paul
Storer said:
I am curious about the costs these days of getting an LS3 to about 525hp with a dry sump.
When I did the costing there was very little difference between a tweaked LS3 d/s and an LS7.
The 7 had all the 'nice' quality parts in the motor to allow it to rev to 7300 and a bit more torque. With a little tinkering 600+ easily attainable too.
At the time the LS7 was about £8500 + VAT and the LS3 quickly rose to that sort of price with the tweaks.
Paul
My engine will be custom build in Canada around 575bhp and will come turnkey roughly around €11.000 (not included dry sump.)A 525 hp is about €9000. Prices exclude VAT. Because of currency exchange the USA-prices are higher.When I did the costing there was very little difference between a tweaked LS3 d/s and an LS7.
The 7 had all the 'nice' quality parts in the motor to allow it to rev to 7300 and a bit more torque. With a little tinkering 600+ easily attainable too.
At the time the LS7 was about £8500 + VAT and the LS3 quickly rose to that sort of price with the tweaks.
Paul
Edited by Pascal Mertens on Tuesday 20th October 11:03
Edited by Pascal Mertens on Tuesday 20th October 11:43
After doing a bit of research, I've decided to go with an LSX 454. The weight difference is nominal, especially when you consider a couple of issues.
1. The Ultima GTR was designed around the SBC iron block 350 from the get-go; the LS is the new kid on the block, so the added weight of an iron block won't hurt your performance. The car has done well in the past with an iron block, so why would it be any different now. Besides...it's a mid-engine layout and the weight isn't all on the back tires.
2. Did you realize the Whipplecharger (the blower sitting on top of the LS7 on the EVO) weighs 60lbs? Not the kit...but the actual blower itself. The kit weighs around 130-140 lbs. A built-up 454 may not put out 1000+ HP, but it'll do just fine without all the added weight, whine, and drama of a supercharger.
3. An LSX 454 is much more reliable, comfortable to drive, and stronger than a LS7 any day of the week.
4. Finally, if you really want to go buck-wild, you'll have a base engine that can withstand some crazy boost at a later date if you ever get the bug to pump some serious HP into your Ultima...well over 1200 HP!
1. The Ultima GTR was designed around the SBC iron block 350 from the get-go; the LS is the new kid on the block, so the added weight of an iron block won't hurt your performance. The car has done well in the past with an iron block, so why would it be any different now. Besides...it's a mid-engine layout and the weight isn't all on the back tires.
2. Did you realize the Whipplecharger (the blower sitting on top of the LS7 on the EVO) weighs 60lbs? Not the kit...but the actual blower itself. The kit weighs around 130-140 lbs. A built-up 454 may not put out 1000+ HP, but it'll do just fine without all the added weight, whine, and drama of a supercharger.
3. An LSX 454 is much more reliable, comfortable to drive, and stronger than a LS7 any day of the week.
4. Finally, if you really want to go buck-wild, you'll have a base engine that can withstand some crazy boost at a later date if you ever get the bug to pump some serious HP into your Ultima...well over 1200 HP!
remind me of the physics class where 100 lbs will not effect performance? 100 lbs on a 2100 lb car, lets see thats 4.5 % of the weight of the car. If you really think you need 27 more cubic inches just build a alloy 454 out of a RHS tall block. I've only had the pleasure of driving around England a few times but the back roads that I drove called for more brakes and better handling not a 1000 hp. But I guess the ability to brag about 1000 hp out weighs having a car that will be a lot more livable day to day. Just my opinion, Lee
I think you're missing my point. I didn't mean to say that 100 lbs will have NO effect, of course it has some effect. But it's nominal in the grand scheme of things when you take the package into consideration. You mentioned a built up alloy 454...well, in a perfect world of UNLIMITED budgets that would be a great option. But you're ignoring the fact that Pascal already stated that he does NOT have an unlimited budget, and neither do I. Honestly, if you really want to save all the weight you can, just have your body duplicated into CF and replace the steel cage with Ti. But like I said, we're not living in a world of unlimited budgets.
I think the LSX 454 makes a great candidate for the GTR and I can't [find] any downsides to it, especially since the car was designed to carry a power-plant with a similar weight target.
I think the LSX 454 makes a great candidate for the GTR and I can't [find] any downsides to it, especially since the car was designed to carry a power-plant with a similar weight target.
A ls7 without cats and with a cam will make 600 hp all day long, Ti rods, dry sump the list goes on. So if you buy a 454 LSX block then you got to stuff it full of good quality parts to include a dry sump pan and pump and then you pay a good competent engine builder to assemble it how much have you spent? Yes the extra 27 cu inches will give you maybe 35 more horse power and more torque but that torque is going to come in at a lower RPM which you do not need in this car. Now if you want over 900 hp which is the level that most of the engine guru's think is the practical limit to the LS alloy block then go to cast iron. But remember now your going to raise the weight of the car by several hundred lbs, iron block, turbo's or super charger, intercoolers, plumbing for same, stronger clutch, maybe axles . Remind again about wither I want a 2100 lb ultima with 600hp or a 2400 lb ultima with 900 hp. Remember also that by the time you build that 900 hp beast the financial commitment will far exceed the nice simple LS7. Also consider as a separate reality whats it going to take to work on the 900hp beast compared to an LS7. Jeff Schwartz had a very well engineered twin turbo car that I got to see on several occasions. one look at all that plumbing inside an Ultima told me that I did not want to work in that engine compartment ... period....... Lee
I hear what you're saying Lee, and I agree with some of it. But somehow you've totally missed my point. I don't want a 900+ hp Ultima, nor did I ever state that. I think you skimmed though my post and got the wrong interpretation. The LS7 is a great motor for the Ultima, but I believe the LSX 454 is too. Look around this forum Lee; there is NO one way to do anything and there is no one great motor.
I like the LSX 454 because it's stronger than an LS7 and gives me greater future options if I CHOOSE to do so. As for internals...the only thing an LS7 has over the 454 is the rods...but the pistons on the LS7 are much weaker. So "6 in one hand, a half dozen in the other." Personally I'd take a 454 over a LS7, but that's my opinion. And when you compare the weight of a 454 vs the SBC, they are very similar and I can live with that. But to each his own I say.
I like the LSX 454 because it's stronger than an LS7 and gives me greater future options if I CHOOSE to do so. As for internals...the only thing an LS7 has over the 454 is the rods...but the pistons on the LS7 are much weaker. So "6 in one hand, a half dozen in the other." Personally I'd take a 454 over a LS7, but that's my opinion. And when you compare the weight of a 454 vs the SBC, they are very similar and I can live with that. But to each his own I say.
LSX Fan said:
2. Did you realize the Whipplecharger (the blower sitting on top of the LS7 on the EVO) weighs 60lbs? Not the kit...but the actual blower itself. The kit weighs around 130-140 lbs.
!
Is that correct? Where did you get those figures from,especially the kitweight - the factory quotes 20kg increase for the supercharged engine...!
deadscoob said:
Is that correct? Where did you get those figures from,especially the kitweight - the factory quotes 20kg increase for the supercharged engine...
Hi. I got it from one of Whipple's distributors. And the factory stated the package was around 130-140 lbs.http://www.shopsupercharger.com/p-455-whipple-w200...
EDIT: I checked with Vortech also. They stated that even their centrifugal kits (which are much lighter than twin-screws), will add 40-80 lbs. I'm familiar with centrifugals, but I've never handled a Roots-style blower (twin-screw, etc.), so I can only go by the few sources of info I found. Hope that helps.
Edited by LSX Fan on Tuesday 27th October 19:27
The one problem with an Ultima is that you can't take them or a good test drive.
If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
Storer said:
The one problem with an Ultima is that you can't take them or a good test drive.
If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
maybe you should learn how to modulate the throttle If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
It isn't binary.... Area under the curve is king.R8VXF said:
Storer said:
The one problem with an Ultima is that you can't take them or a good test drive.
If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
maybe you should learn how to modulate the throttle If you did you would soon realise that you don't need big power and certainly not mega torque to have a very fast car. There can be too much of a good thing (in this case not a good thing). You just need slightly too much! The last thing you want is to be unable to apply full throttle for fear of reversing into the hedge.
Paul
It isn't binary.... Area under the curve is king.I suspect from your garage you have no idea what an Ultima is like. I went from a Cerbera to the Ultima and there is no comparison.
One of the reasons you see so many low mileage Ultima's for sale is that they can scare the sh*t out of their owner.
I am well aware of the operation of a throttle pedal.
Bigger is not always better!
Paul
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