does any one have a TUV or EU verification number ?
Discussion
CTE said:
Yet another case for Brexit...it is only a matter of time before the pen pushing do gooder beaurocrats in Brussels ban any form of hobby motoring in the name of environment...but we can still all use stinking public transport!
Will a brexit help to register British cars in Europe? I don't think so. 
Do you still have the TR6 bits in the attic?
dandare said:
CTE said:
Yet another case for Brexit...it is only a matter of time before the pen pushing do gooder beaurocrats in Brussels ban any form of hobby motoring in the name of environment...but we can still all use stinking public transport!
Will a brexit help to register British cars in Europe? I don't think so. Do you still have the TR6 bits in the attic?
Tough sh*t I'm alright Jack.
If you don't like EU rules and Regs
.You know what to do!
If we stay in the EU bureaucracy will eventually kill our hobby.
F.C. said:
dandare said:
CTE said:
Yet another case for Brexit...it is only a matter of time before the pen pushing do gooder beaurocrats in Brussels ban any form of hobby motoring in the name of environment...but we can still all use stinking public transport!
Will a brexit help to register British cars in Europe? I don't think so. Do you still have the TR6 bits in the attic?
Tough sh*t I'm alright Jack.
If you don't like EU rules and Regs
.You know what to do!
If we stay in the EU bureaucracy will eventually kill our hobby.
If Ultima wants to survive, it should and can make the cars pre-street legal if it wanted to, so does so many other companies. and i dont see ac-copra people cry with polluting v8 engines. why ?? because the company knew that they had to make them legal for EU streets in advance. If i had to choose for a track car instead i would choose an other sports-car.
The reason for me to choose Ultima is the fact that it is also street legal.
So ... Ultima ltd has the key to our solution i think.
bamsetand said:
Well i dont believe that it is a matter of EU or not. neither a matter of laws of enviroment. since ls7 corvette is on the street in Eu so is so many other sports cars. i would rather blame it on Ultima since the company DID not make it any easier to regs their own cars. if ultima would be smart they would have pre testet and crash testet and made the lobby work for their own cars audi r8 or lamborghini is not having these issues with EU rules as Ultima cars do. this is only because the company does not wish to be involved. and it is such a pity for them selfs and the rest of us who loves the cars. we are all doomed to individualy to struggle with Eu rules.
If Ultima wants to survive, it should and can make the cars pre-street legal if it wanted to, so does so many other companies. and i dont see ac-copra people cry with polluting v8 engines. why ?? because the company knew that they had to make them legal for EU streets in advance. If i had to choose for a track car instead i would choose an other sports-car.
The reason for me to choose Ultima is the fact that it is also street legal.
So ... Ultima ltd has the key to our solution i think.
The cost of a physical crash test is influenced by some significant cost drivers,If Ultima wants to survive, it should and can make the cars pre-street legal if it wanted to, so does so many other companies. and i dont see ac-copra people cry with polluting v8 engines. why ?? because the company knew that they had to make them legal for EU streets in advance. If i had to choose for a track car instead i would choose an other sports-car.
The reason for me to choose Ultima is the fact that it is also street legal.
So ... Ultima ltd has the key to our solution i think.
Depending on the stage in the new product development process,
a prototype car to be crashed can be anything from ten thousand pounds to over a
million pounds, The first or early prototypes being the most expensive.
A crash dummy can be in the order of a hundred thousand pounds and then must be maintained and re-worked.
A crash test can take in the order of a week for preparation, a day for the crash test and two to three days to analyse the results.
Audi group 2015 revenue 58,420 million
Ultima 2015 revenue <2 million
The net income figures for each of these are very different!
Can you guess why Ultima hasn't gone through crash testing etc?
Steve_D said:
I know of another kitcar manufacturer who started down the route of getting the low production EU approval. The cost was prohibitive so they gave up.
A couple of examples. Fuel tank pressure test £6k. Seat belt pull test £100K.
Steve
Indeed, I suspect the entire revenue of Ultima since 1992 would not come close to a fully "type tested" car.A couple of examples. Fuel tank pressure test £6k. Seat belt pull test £100K.
Steve
To compare Ultima to Audi / Lamboghini in development terms is laughable.
F.C. said:
Steve_D said:
I know of another kitcar manufacturer who started down the route of getting the low production EU approval. The cost was prohibitive so they gave up.
A couple of examples. Fuel tank pressure test £6k. Seat belt pull test £100K.
Steve
Indeed, I suspect the entire revenue of Ultima since 1992 would not come close to a fully "type tested" car.A couple of examples. Fuel tank pressure test £6k. Seat belt pull test £100K.
Steve
To compare Ultima to Audi / Lamboghini in development terms is laughable.
On the other hand i already knew there could be issues with getting the car registrated in denmark, before i i got it. So not being able to registrate the car is my own risk.
the laws of production cars are set by big commerciel corporations lobbying to prevent smaller companies to inter the market. the restriction starts at 500 cars minimum a year. which is B:::S since producing 500 pieces does not make a car better, safer or nor more enviromental. In most cases and in this case with ultima´s small production cars are safer to drive then so many huge production cars. I think this is a matter of lobbyismen. and it is sad the industry prevent each other.
in denmark some 5 years ago ac copra was illegal in Denmark to the fact that a english producer of this kit car repported
that other manufactures of this kit safety and constrution could cause disaster and accidents in trafic. making their brand the only ac copra brand allowed in DK. this is called lobbyismen.
this is what causes the problems. and i could only fear what other big companies does to each other to prevent competition by stepping on each other.
But this is only my opinion. and thanks for the debate.
bamsetand said:
Well to compare ultima to audi/ was not a state fact example, nor to debate if they are the same, but rather to say that if i had to regs the car in Denmark i would as a person have to pay my self for the crash test.
On the other hand i already knew there could be issues with getting the car registrated in denmark, before i i got it. So not being able to registrate the car is my own risk.
the laws of production cars are set by big commerciel corporations lobbying to prevent smaller companies to inter the market. the restriction starts at 500 cars minimum a year. which is B:::S since producing 500 pieces does not make a car better, safer or nor more enviromental. In most cases and in this case with ultima´s small production cars are safer to drive then so many huge production cars. I think this is a matter of lobbyismen. and it is sad the industry prevent each other.
in denmark some 5 years ago ac copra was illegal in Denmark to the fact that a english producer of this kit car repported
that other manufactures of this kit safety and constrution could cause disaster and accidents in trafic. making their brand the only ac copra brand allowed in DK. this is called lobbyismen.
this is what causes the problems. and i could only fear what other big companies does to each other to prevent competition by stepping on each other.
But this is only my opinion. and thanks for the debate.
Yup you are right, but most of the lobbying done in the EU for the EU's "benefit" and the Regs are passed by non democratically elected officials (some with their own agenda).On the other hand i already knew there could be issues with getting the car registrated in denmark, before i i got it. So not being able to registrate the car is my own risk.
the laws of production cars are set by big commerciel corporations lobbying to prevent smaller companies to inter the market. the restriction starts at 500 cars minimum a year. which is B:::S since producing 500 pieces does not make a car better, safer or nor more enviromental. In most cases and in this case with ultima´s small production cars are safer to drive then so many huge production cars. I think this is a matter of lobbyismen. and it is sad the industry prevent each other.
in denmark some 5 years ago ac copra was illegal in Denmark to the fact that a english producer of this kit car repported
that other manufactures of this kit safety and constrution could cause disaster and accidents in trafic. making their brand the only ac copra brand allowed in DK. this is called lobbyismen.
this is what causes the problems. and i could only fear what other big companies does to each other to prevent competition by stepping on each other.
But this is only my opinion. and thanks for the debate.
So in short the E.U. has become a threat to my way of life in so many ways.
F.C. said:
dandare said:
CTE said:
Yet another case for Brexit...it is only a matter of time before the pen pushing do gooder beaurocrats in Brussels ban any form of hobby motoring in the name of environment...but we can still all use stinking public transport!
Will a brexit help to register British cars in Europe? I don't think so. Do you still have the TR6 bits in the attic?
Tough sh*t I'm alright Jack.
If you don't like EU rules and Regs
.You know what to do!
If we stay in the EU bureaucracy will eventually kill our hobby.
We can leave the EU, or we can try and change the rules from within. I suspect arguing the kit car case will be more successful from within the EU, not that it's an important financial issue for our country. Life for Ultimasports will be more difficult if the cars can't be driven in Europe. It's a pity that the kit car businesses and suppliers don't group together to make a louder voice. Maybe they're too busy saying "I'm alright Jack"?
I wouldn't blame the bureaucracy for this, rather, as Bamsetand says, it's the powerful lobbyists and as you say, our uninterested representatives. Fat chance of a fair trial with all of those involved.
This has nothing to do with my views on whether Britain should stay in or out of the EU, by the way.
Well - back to the original topic of crash worthiness & COCs:
I was under the impression that the decrease in numbers of new Ultima registrations in France & Germany in recent years has been a result of tougher emission standards, but not changes towards tougher structure requirements - but I might be wrong.
Does anybody (Sven?) know whether the (EU/German) regulations regarding the chassis / crash worthiness have changed in the last few years? Because people did get their new Ultimas through TÜV before...! And the more rigid chassis introduced by the factory in Dec. 2013 should (from a technical point of view) make demonstrating compliance easier, not tougher...
Pascal Mertens said:
Well as far as my knowledge goes before april 2009 you we're fine with a UK SVA-approval but now you need a COC
pretty sure there were new Ultimas registered in Germany after April 2009 - so could this be a national/Belgian rather than EU thing? I was under the impression that the decrease in numbers of new Ultima registrations in France & Germany in recent years has been a result of tougher emission standards, but not changes towards tougher structure requirements - but I might be wrong.
Does anybody (Sven?) know whether the (EU/German) regulations regarding the chassis / crash worthiness have changed in the last few years? Because people did get their new Ultimas through TÜV before...! And the more rigid chassis introduced by the factory in Dec. 2013 should (from a technical point of view) make demonstrating compliance easier, not tougher...
UltimaPanthera said:
pretty sure there were new Ultimas registered in Germany after April 2009 - so could this be a national/Belgian rather than EU thing?
I was under the impression that the decrease in numbers of new Ultima registrations in France & Germany in recent years has been a result of tougher emission standards, but not changes towards tougher structure requirements - but I might be wrong.
Does anybody (Sven?) know whether the (EU/German) regulations regarding the chassis / crash worthiness have changed in the last few years? Because people did get their new Ultimas through TÜV before...! And the more rigid chassis introduced by the factory in Dec. 2013 should (from a technical point of view) make demonstrating compliance easier, not tougher...
I'd like to think you are right, but alteration of a chassis "could" make it better or worse in a crash situation and until tested it is a matter of conjecture as far as the Authorities are concerned.I was under the impression that the decrease in numbers of new Ultima registrations in France & Germany in recent years has been a result of tougher emission standards, but not changes towards tougher structure requirements - but I might be wrong.
Does anybody (Sven?) know whether the (EU/German) regulations regarding the chassis / crash worthiness have changed in the last few years? Because people did get their new Ultimas through TÜV before...! And the more rigid chassis introduced by the factory in Dec. 2013 should (from a technical point of view) make demonstrating compliance easier, not tougher...
If TUV was achieved you'd imagine in a "single market" that it would count anywhere in the EU?
It isn't very expensive to do a computer simulation for a crash test. Only a couple of thousand pounds using LS Dyna and paying for a supercomputer's calculating time (at least it was when I looked into it about 7 years ago). Admittedly that was only for a frontal crash test, so I suppose rear and side impacts would also need to be done. Having said that, computational power has increased loads since then.
Maybe Ultimasports and the others should bung a backhander to one of our MEPs in order that he/she raises the subject in the European parliament (I understand that's how it's done).
Tube chassis are much quicker and cheaper to calculate than a monocoque, and the accuracy is pretty good. That could be a good starting point, assuming there really is a problem to get the cars registered in some countries and that crash tests are the main hurdle. There appear to be plenty of conflicting opinions about this.
What do companies like Caterham, Ginetta, Radical, Ariel, etc. do? I bet they wouldn't have 100k+ to pay for for such tests. Are those cars available in other European markets?
Anyway, good luck with finding a solution, Bamsetand.
Maybe Ultimasports and the others should bung a backhander to one of our MEPs in order that he/she raises the subject in the European parliament (I understand that's how it's done).
Tube chassis are much quicker and cheaper to calculate than a monocoque, and the accuracy is pretty good. That could be a good starting point, assuming there really is a problem to get the cars registered in some countries and that crash tests are the main hurdle. There appear to be plenty of conflicting opinions about this.
What do companies like Caterham, Ginetta, Radical, Ariel, etc. do? I bet they wouldn't have 100k+ to pay for for such tests. Are those cars available in other European markets?
Anyway, good luck with finding a solution, Bamsetand.
Caterham, Morgan & one model of Westfield are all sold in France through official dealers which would mean they have all gone through the process for European Type Approval and the resultant European COC. I'd have thought that if Westfield can do that, so could Ultima. Quite possibly, they just see markets like France and Denmark as having too limited sales potential for the outlay, especially as they seem pretty busy currently.
johnnygriff said:
Caterham, Morgan & one model of Westfield are all sold in France through official dealers which would mean they have all gone through the process for European Type Approval and the resultant European COC. I'd have thought that if Westfield can do that, so could Ultima. Quite possibly, they just see markets like France and Denmark as having too limited sales potential for the outlay, especially as they seem pretty busy currently.
Ultima could gain alot by getting the aprovals in EU. germany cant registrate any new ultima anymore. the problem with aproval it all over europe perhaps they sell better in the america without any changes.Denmark has the highest tax on cars in general at 350% but there is an increase in sales of sports cars because of leasing agreement from germany so it means many " new ritch kids" in denmark can drive new lamboghini cabriolet for rent etc.
if only ultima would be so kind to make the aproval for our cars, then i am sure sales will increase. even caterham drives legal in denmark.
i was told the only way to get aproval within denmark was to have two ultima`s. one for registration and the other for crash test. if ultima offered just one car to do this in EU it would be legal all over EU. in concern with the engine ultima also has problems in califonia with to high co2 levels.
in the end i will just go to the tracks and dream of the streets :-) with my ultima.
We have a say about this. don't bite the hand that feeds you.
johnnygriff said:
Caterham, Morgan & one model of Westfield are all sold in France through official dealers which would mean they have all gone through the process for European Type Approval and the resultant European COC. I'd have thought that if Westfield can do that, so could Ultima. Quite possibly, they just see markets like France and Denmark as having too limited sales potential for the outlay, especially as they seem pretty busy currently.
Again Money is key, Caterham turnover is circa 20 millionI to run in Italy I had to register my gtr in Germany, with English documents.
in 2011 I went to tuv German and in one day I had the German license plates.
the return in Italy, being in ue, they made me the conversion with Italian license plates.
I though I modified L98 engine, then euro 4.
I do not know if I could with carb.
a spent a lot of money.
I had to do this necessary step because in Italy it is impossible even to change the Tyre size ........ no changes permitted.
alternatively homologous as a single unit but the cost is prohibitive!
in 2011 I went to tuv German and in one day I had the German license plates.
the return in Italy, being in ue, they made me the conversion with Italian license plates.
I though I modified L98 engine, then euro 4.
I do not know if I could with carb.
a spent a lot of money.
I had to do this necessary step because in Italy it is impossible even to change the Tyre size ........ no changes permitted.
alternatively homologous as a single unit but the cost is prohibitive!
There is, in fact, a low volume type approval for sales in the EEC of less than 1000 cars per year.
Official title is: European Small Series Production Status.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/ec-small-ser...
It's the route Westfield took.
Probably still a costly procedure for Ultima and why change their business model if it's working okay for them?
Official title is: European Small Series Production Status.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/ec-small-ser...
It's the route Westfield took.
Probably still a costly procedure for Ultima and why change their business model if it's working okay for them?
johnnygriff said:
There is, in fact, a low volume type approval for sales in the EEC of less than 1000 cars per year.
Official title is: European Small Series Production Status.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/ec-small-ser...
Well, thanks for this link - just one question: Official title is: European Small Series Production Status.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/ec-small-ser...
Under https://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/vehicl... they mention "Test Facility Review" and "Conformity of Production Review"; last time I checked, neither my garage nor my driveway were ISO-9001 certified... :-)
Call me pessimistic - but to a certain extend I doubt that this is applicable to a home-built Ultima...?
Edited by UltimaPanthera on Monday 30th May 22:48
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