New To Kit Cars - Questions?
Discussion
I have had my eyes on the Ultima GTR for the past several months. Each time I take another look at this vehicle, I start to drool! Drooling is a good thing as long as it is not associated with some form of chemical imbalance in the brain. However, being a “supercar” owner in the past has left me gun-shy about going down that road again. Here’s why…
I bought a new 2000 C5 and took delivery of it from my dealer in December 1999, which was the perfect Christmas gift. I was very happy with the car and the power-output was outstanding for a 350hp street legal supercar. I like to drive hard and fast. My C5 routinely saw speeds in excess of 170mph (I am a top-speed man myself). I love road racing and making a car “dance” around a track. Putting the car right on the edge of its performance envelope is a very fun and exciting thing! Learning the “behavior” of the vehicle is also half of the fun of extreme driving.
I was very happy until I ran into my first few problems with the C5 AND with GM.
The issue was cockpit noise and a power loss above 4000rpm’s on the chassis dyno. The power loss was my biggest problem and that was ultimate troubleshot down to faulty spark in one of the cylinders. In the meantime, the guys over at GM tore my engine apart trying to find the problem.
The noise inside the cockpit abrasive and far too routine. My theory is that if I pay over $50,000 for a vehicle, then I expect a certain "build quality" and "materials quality" to come along with the car. I feel that GM used very cheap materials in the cockpit for a $50,000 “supercar”.
The car developed "rattles" that could be heard inside the cockpit with the windows rolled-up and the stereo turned off. Rattles from the door, under the dash, and near the right rear quadrant area of the car. Rattles that GM Mechanics could NEVER find.
My first question is regarding the "Materials and Build" quality of the Ultima GTR.
Does Ultima really give a hoot about making quality cars out of quality materials? Also, when I build the car and put it on the road, can I expect rattles beyond comprehension after the first 20 miles, or can I expect a sound, solid and well “engineered” vehicle with very good “parts tolerance” (quality fit between ALL components) in every piece that leaves the factory? How many of you have Ultima’s that rattle there way down the highway? I hope the answer is none!
Basically, I’m looking for reasons NOT to make the Ultima purchase at this time. I already have MANY reasons for making the purchase. This is my due-diligence homework. I really like the car and really want to purchase one, but NOT if it means a ton of additional headaches.
How well is this car engineered?
Cheers and God Bless You All.
I bought a new 2000 C5 and took delivery of it from my dealer in December 1999, which was the perfect Christmas gift. I was very happy with the car and the power-output was outstanding for a 350hp street legal supercar. I like to drive hard and fast. My C5 routinely saw speeds in excess of 170mph (I am a top-speed man myself). I love road racing and making a car “dance” around a track. Putting the car right on the edge of its performance envelope is a very fun and exciting thing! Learning the “behavior” of the vehicle is also half of the fun of extreme driving.
I was very happy until I ran into my first few problems with the C5 AND with GM.
The issue was cockpit noise and a power loss above 4000rpm’s on the chassis dyno. The power loss was my biggest problem and that was ultimate troubleshot down to faulty spark in one of the cylinders. In the meantime, the guys over at GM tore my engine apart trying to find the problem.
The noise inside the cockpit abrasive and far too routine. My theory is that if I pay over $50,000 for a vehicle, then I expect a certain "build quality" and "materials quality" to come along with the car. I feel that GM used very cheap materials in the cockpit for a $50,000 “supercar”.
The car developed "rattles" that could be heard inside the cockpit with the windows rolled-up and the stereo turned off. Rattles from the door, under the dash, and near the right rear quadrant area of the car. Rattles that GM Mechanics could NEVER find.
My first question is regarding the "Materials and Build" quality of the Ultima GTR.
Does Ultima really give a hoot about making quality cars out of quality materials? Also, when I build the car and put it on the road, can I expect rattles beyond comprehension after the first 20 miles, or can I expect a sound, solid and well “engineered” vehicle with very good “parts tolerance” (quality fit between ALL components) in every piece that leaves the factory? How many of you have Ultima’s that rattle there way down the highway? I hope the answer is none!
Basically, I’m looking for reasons NOT to make the Ultima purchase at this time. I already have MANY reasons for making the purchase. This is my due-diligence homework. I really like the car and really want to purchase one, but NOT if it means a ton of additional headaches.
How well is this car engineered?
Cheers and God Bless You All.
The Ultima design and engineering is IMHO beyond reproach. The build quality is, for the most part, down to you. The quality of the parts and their packaging/presentation is top class. If part of the kit included a pipe to join the brake fluid reservoir to the master cylinder you would find in that bag the pipe, 3 ‘P’ clips and the 3 rivets to secure them.
If you have not met an Ultima in the flesh you may not be aware that its design brief is as a stripped out street race car so is not intended to have any of the creature comforts of a ‘Quote’ Supercar. If there were to be any rattles you may be able to hear them above the radio as most Ultimas don’t have a radio.
Cockpit noise may be an issue if quiet is what you want. You do not get quiet in an Ultima unless you haven’t started the engine yet. There is 1/8” of glass fibre and 12” distance between the engine and the back of your head.
Enjoy
Steve
If you have not met an Ultima in the flesh you may not be aware that its design brief is as a stripped out street race car so is not intended to have any of the creature comforts of a ‘Quote’ Supercar. If there were to be any rattles you may be able to hear them above the radio as most Ultimas don’t have a radio.
Cockpit noise may be an issue if quiet is what you want. You do not get quiet in an Ultima unless you haven’t started the engine yet. There is 1/8” of glass fibre and 12” distance between the engine and the back of your head.
Enjoy
Steve
L2Pilot. I am probably one of Ultimas oldest customers (in more ways than one) having placed my first order with them at the beginning of 1995 for a Mark 4 Sports (the forerunner of the GTR). I took a very leisurely 4 years putting this together with a lot of help and support from the factory who were always there to answer my questions. Mind you, I didn't get off to a particularly good start as I wasn't happy with the geometry of the original chassis. When I spoke to Ultima about this, they had no hesitation in giving me another one, FOC. If you ever visit the Ultima factory, you can still see my original chassis hanging on the wall. They were at this time a very small company indeed, so replacing a chassis was a sizeable cost to them. They were then and still are, really nice people to do business with.
I've had a lot of cars over the years but the Ultima has given me the most satisfaction to drive, probably because I built it myself. The car is extremely well engineered but i'ts not a quiet car by any means, although you can do a lot to dampen down the cockpit noise if you're so inclined (double skin the chassis and use accoustic foam as the "sandwich filling" for example).
I am still driving the "Sports" but ordered a GTR last year and again am taking my time putting it together. This, perhaps more than anything else, tells you what I think about Ultimas.
I've had a lot of cars over the years but the Ultima has given me the most satisfaction to drive, probably because I built it myself. The car is extremely well engineered but i'ts not a quiet car by any means, although you can do a lot to dampen down the cockpit noise if you're so inclined (double skin the chassis and use accoustic foam as the "sandwich filling" for example).
I am still driving the "Sports" but ordered a GTR last year and again am taking my time putting it together. This, perhaps more than anything else, tells you what I think about Ultimas.
Ultimas are well engineered cars. But they are street legal race cars, though they have less squeeks and rattles than a race car, they're pretty noisy. They are so freaking fast, you don't have time to listen to the rattles, too busy keeping it pointed straight and listening to the song of the engine.
jeff
jeff
L2 Pilot, Don't worry about the Quality of the mechanicals, they have them tuned to a fine art form, the chassis when you first get it just oozes quality and precision. I found it hard to drill the first hole, it just seemed a shame to drill 1200 holes in what was an unblemished gloss black work of ART. While building the car you can add Sound deadening material, Ultima Andy has done this to all of his Panelling in a Can-Am, and at 90 mph you can turn off the engine and it is really quite eerily quiet. As people will say the factory is always concerned about weight so, they do not add sound reduction as a necessary quality for a Road going race car. I have built the car to the Factory spec’s as far as that goes, but will next time consider a Stereo and sound deadening as the damn things so fast already the little extra weight for me will not make that much difference. To get the car under a 1000kgs Just fit an Ally Block to the Chevy. Then you to can have a 990kgs Built.
Just build one, but be warned they are addictive you wont want to drive anything else.
Clive
Just build one, but be warned they are addictive you wont want to drive anything else.
Clive
Thanks for all the responses!
Hmmm. I think I am starting to see the light here. My initial gut level reaction told me to expect high levels of cockpit noise. I’ve never worked with Kit Cars before, so I did not know exactly what to expect. Now, it is clear – noise WILL be an issue.
Ok - so, it looks like I have located my first build problem:
1) Noise Reduction at Build Time
In doing my research and simply looking at the pictures on the Web, I thought to myself that finding a “good” and “decent” way to efficiently "sound-proof" the cockpit would be one of my MAJOR goals. I REALLY hope that the guys over at Ultima can help with some ideas on this matter.
But, why sound proof?
Because - I love driving places. Yes – I am a Pilot and could just as easily fly to Las Vegas, or Los Angles from San Francisco, but there will also be times when I want to “fly on the ground” at 150+mph down south as well! On a big 500 mile run like that, “too much” cockpit noise can really wear a man down. You end up pulling into your hotel 4hrs later feeling like you have just driven 2000 miles! So, yes – this noise issue is going to have to get solved, or at least severely reduced – I hope?
Thanks for the honest input about the “noise” and what to expect, I really appreciate that from the veteran Ultima Drivers.
I’ll try not to hit you guys with too many questions – I’ll try to read the other posts first for my answers – but I sure do have a lot of them.
Thanks again!
L2Pilot
“A Possible GTR Man in Research”
Hmmm. I think I am starting to see the light here. My initial gut level reaction told me to expect high levels of cockpit noise. I’ve never worked with Kit Cars before, so I did not know exactly what to expect. Now, it is clear – noise WILL be an issue.
Ok - so, it looks like I have located my first build problem:
1) Noise Reduction at Build Time
In doing my research and simply looking at the pictures on the Web, I thought to myself that finding a “good” and “decent” way to efficiently "sound-proof" the cockpit would be one of my MAJOR goals. I REALLY hope that the guys over at Ultima can help with some ideas on this matter.
But, why sound proof?
Because - I love driving places. Yes – I am a Pilot and could just as easily fly to Las Vegas, or Los Angles from San Francisco, but there will also be times when I want to “fly on the ground” at 150+mph down south as well! On a big 500 mile run like that, “too much” cockpit noise can really wear a man down. You end up pulling into your hotel 4hrs later feeling like you have just driven 2000 miles! So, yes – this noise issue is going to have to get solved, or at least severely reduced – I hope?
Thanks for the honest input about the “noise” and what to expect, I really appreciate that from the veteran Ultima Drivers.
I’ll try not to hit you guys with too many questions – I’ll try to read the other posts first for my answers – but I sure do have a lot of them.
Thanks again!
L2Pilot
“A Possible GTR Man in Research”
L2 Pilot
Surprised at your remarks concerning the C5. We have 2 in our family. IMHO, dollar for dollar, they are the best car for the money. I think nothing of driving 1500 miles to Florida in mine, with a maximum of one stop. I've done it non stop. Car is comfortable, and quiet (not that my hearing is that good being a ATP with over 6000 piston hours). Even more quiet now that I've gotten rid of the run flats. I've got almost 70,000 miles on mine. Changed some wheel bearings(warranty) that were noisy. I thought my C4 was great (154,00 miles when I sold it), but it can't compare to the C5.
I'm trying now to figure out how my wife and I will be able to travel anywhere in our CanAm with no top and luggage for a few days.
Jack
Surprised at your remarks concerning the C5. We have 2 in our family. IMHO, dollar for dollar, they are the best car for the money. I think nothing of driving 1500 miles to Florida in mine, with a maximum of one stop. I've done it non stop. Car is comfortable, and quiet (not that my hearing is that good being a ATP with over 6000 piston hours). Even more quiet now that I've gotten rid of the run flats. I've got almost 70,000 miles on mine. Changed some wheel bearings(warranty) that were noisy. I thought my C4 was great (154,00 miles when I sold it), but it can't compare to the C5.
I'm trying now to figure out how my wife and I will be able to travel anywhere in our CanAm with no top and luggage for a few days.
Jack
L2Pilot
The main source for the noise is of course the engine so the first area to attack is the rear bulkhead. In the GTR there is a 38mm roll bar/frame for the bulkhead. The standard build is ali skin about 12” high on the cockpit side and GRP with a bit of carpet over the remainder on the engine side.
On my build I have ali skinned both sides top to bottom. Inside the cavity thus created is ‘Barrier Matt’ a rubber sound material 1/8” thick self adhered to the cockpit skin and the remainder of the cavity filled with felt. The GRP skin is still behind that.
Elsewhere any other skins should be sound deadened to stop vibration and road noise.
It will never reach the standards Mr Ford and his peers achieve but then again we do not have the billions of dollars they spend on sound. I believe they modify body panels so that none of them have the same harmonic frequency.
My build is not complete so can not prove that I have the answer but it has to be a step in the right direction.
Steve
The main source for the noise is of course the engine so the first area to attack is the rear bulkhead. In the GTR there is a 38mm roll bar/frame for the bulkhead. The standard build is ali skin about 12” high on the cockpit side and GRP with a bit of carpet over the remainder on the engine side.
On my build I have ali skinned both sides top to bottom. Inside the cavity thus created is ‘Barrier Matt’ a rubber sound material 1/8” thick self adhered to the cockpit skin and the remainder of the cavity filled with felt. The GRP skin is still behind that.
Elsewhere any other skins should be sound deadened to stop vibration and road noise.
It will never reach the standards Mr Ford and his peers achieve but then again we do not have the billions of dollars they spend on sound. I believe they modify body panels so that none of them have the same harmonic frequency.
My build is not complete so can not prove that I have the answer but it has to be a step in the right direction.
Steve
L2Pilot. Like Steve D, I have also double skinned the whole of the rear bulkhead of my "Sports" in aluminium and used "Barrier Mat" and fire retardent foam as a filling between the panels. I have done the same with the front bulkhead and cockpit floor. I also have a good headlining which was fitted before the body went on. With one exception, my car is the quietest Ultima I have been in but make no mistake, it is still noisy and a lot of it is road noise. Engine noise is a bonus in this car.
If you do decide to build one, I would strongly recommend that you don't waste your money on putting in a fancy hi-fi system because you'll never hear it comfortably. Having said all that, my car is extremely comfortable to drive and the overall noise level it not at all OTT. Bear in mind too, that most Ultimas fit their owners' like a glove (not surprising really as they were designed to be that way) with the pedals and controls just where you want them to be. Try asking Porsche or GM to accommodate your little idiosyncrasies.
If you do decide to build one, I would strongly recommend that you don't waste your money on putting in a fancy hi-fi system because you'll never hear it comfortably. Having said all that, my car is extremely comfortable to drive and the overall noise level it not at all OTT. Bear in mind too, that most Ultimas fit their owners' like a glove (not surprising really as they were designed to be that way) with the pedals and controls just where you want them to be. Try asking Porsche or GM to accommodate your little idiosyncrasies.
Alan2
Are you inferring L2Pilot has a little idiosyncrasy?
L2Pilot
I am installing a radio but understand that it may not be audible so have also fitted a motorcycle intercom system. Using headsets it:-
· Connects to the radio and mutes to half volume when you speak to your passenger.
· Mutes completely and connects to your mobile phone when it rings or you want to make a call.
· Mutes completely when your GPS gives instructions.
· Mutes completely when your Radar warner goes off.
· Can be connected to a 2 way radio so you can talk to your friends when in convoy.
That should do the trick.
Steve
Are you inferring L2Pilot has a little idiosyncrasy?
L2Pilot
I am installing a radio but understand that it may not be audible so have also fitted a motorcycle intercom system. Using headsets it:-
· Connects to the radio and mutes to half volume when you speak to your passenger.
· Mutes completely and connects to your mobile phone when it rings or you want to make a call.
· Mutes completely when your GPS gives instructions.
· Mutes completely when your Radar warner goes off.
· Can be connected to a 2 way radio so you can talk to your friends when in convoy.
That should do the trick.
Steve
I bet Westfield never get asked this question
Alan, not been in your car but mine doesn't suffer from excesive road noise, it's the engine that makes the stereo hard to hear above 70mph.
I have used 2-3 layers of sound deadening on every alloy panel including the double skin, its also topped of with a fire retardent layer like what goes above the exhaust.
This is a race car though and will probably be as quiet as a Ferrari F40 inside but never as good as a Lexus
Alan, not been in your car but mine doesn't suffer from excesive road noise, it's the engine that makes the stereo hard to hear above 70mph.
I have used 2-3 layers of sound deadening on every alloy panel including the double skin, its also topped of with a fire retardent layer like what goes above the exhaust.
This is a race car though and will probably be as quiet as a Ferrari F40 inside but never as good as a Lexus
Steve D- priceless quote......."You do not get quiet in an Ultima unless you haven’t started the engine yet."
What a great thread.....thoroughly enjoyed the read!
If I ever get my Viper back on the road, my next project after that will be a GTR for sure!
Just a suggestion L2 Pilot.......(plug coming....!) there's going to be a fair few Ultimas at PistonFest, and Ted (Mr. Ultima) is going to be there too- why not sort a test drive with Ted by contacting him directly prior to PistonFest, and ask some of the guys on the Ultima section of PH for a good "look around" their cars when both you & they are there???????
To do the above though, you'll need some tickets (hint hint!)
OK, maybe not then- just read your profile, and you'll have a few miles to travel!!!!!!
>> Edited by PistonFest on Saturday 3rd May 22:05
What a great thread.....thoroughly enjoyed the read!
If I ever get my Viper back on the road, my next project after that will be a GTR for sure!
Just a suggestion L2 Pilot.......(plug coming....!) there's going to be a fair few Ultimas at PistonFest, and Ted (Mr. Ultima) is going to be there too- why not sort a test drive with Ted by contacting him directly prior to PistonFest, and ask some of the guys on the Ultima section of PH for a good "look around" their cars when both you & they are there???????
To do the above though, you'll need some tickets (hint hint!)
OK, maybe not then- just read your profile, and you'll have a few miles to travel!!!!!!
>> Edited by PistonFest on Saturday 3rd May 22:05
USCANAM said: L2 Pilot
Surprised at your remarks concerning the C5. We have 2 in our family. IMHO, dollar for dollar, they are the best car for the money. I think nothing of driving 1500 miles to Florida in mine, with a maximum of one stop. I've done it non stop. Car is comfortable, and quiet (not that my hearing is that good being a ATP with over 6000 piston hours). Even more quiet now that I've gotten rid of the run flats. I've got almost 70,000 miles on mine. Changed some wheel bearings(warranty) that were noisy. I thought my C4 was great (154,00 miles when I sold it), but it can't compare to the C5.
I'm trying now to figure out how my wife and I will be able to travel anywhere in our CanAm with no top and luggage for a few days.
Jack
If you can do 1500 miles non stop, how big is your fuel tank, or do you just get 100 mpg?
James
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