Twin Turbo LS1/LS6 GTR
Discussion
Hewland? Quaife? How are these high powered motors going to get the torque to the road?
Yes this is the kind of thread I love.
Total PH madness. Where fellow PH's with mad cars start wondering the limits of how much hp is necessary.
What I would like to see is a small (under 289) light weight turboed V8 wit alloy block.
It would be technically appealing to me to have Ti connecting rods (a la Javier), Be valve seats (Saleen), and Sodium filled valve stems. (Z06) Unfortuantly, Be alloy engine blocks (McLaren) are not on the market. (yet)
>> Edited by PiB on Friday 6th June 19:10
Yes this is the kind of thread I love.
Total PH madness. Where fellow PH's with mad cars start wondering the limits of how much hp is necessary. What I would like to see is a small (under 289) light weight turboed V8 wit alloy block.
It would be technically appealing to me to have Ti connecting rods (a la Javier), Be valve seats (Saleen), and Sodium filled valve stems. (Z06) Unfortuantly, Be alloy engine blocks (McLaren) are not on the market. (yet)
>> Edited by PiB on Friday 6th June 19:10
Agreed on all accounts.
As for a transaxle, there are several that can handle 650 ft/lbs of torque, but they are almost all certainly modified with billet shift forks, side case strengthening billet, etc. The G50/52s that are done this way or the GT3 Porsche racing transaxles with the chromoly motorsports diffs near 20k US with external oiling and the works to hold up to this kind of hp and torque.
What good is a willy if you can't wave it?
Craig
As for a transaxle, there are several that can handle 650 ft/lbs of torque, but they are almost all certainly modified with billet shift forks, side case strengthening billet, etc. The G50/52s that are done this way or the GT3 Porsche racing transaxles with the chromoly motorsports diffs near 20k US with external oiling and the works to hold up to this kind of hp and torque.
What good is a willy if you can't wave it?
Craig
James/Ultimasimon:
In case you did not already know, according to Ultima's advertised wheelbase, total vehicle weight, wheel size, tire size, breaking power and what I could glean regarding suspension geometry of the GTR, I have calculated Linear Acceleration g-Force, Lateral Sustained g-Force, and most importantly the Inertial Moment of the GTR coming out of a .90-g turn with >=2<=12 degrees of bank, and >=0<=5 degrees of pitch, as being most favorable with 700 RWHP and an approximate number for the RWT (provided decent tires and dry road conditions).
Furthermore, I said I might be driving the car "every other day", and most likely more than the average GTR driver. I also said that it needed to be "streetable". I did not say that I would be driving the car "every day" as you stated, nor did I say anything about "heavy driving", also as you stated.
I don't have an office to commute to every morning, nor do I have a timecard to punch. So what "I" may consider "daily driving" could be run to the golf course and back which is less than 15 minutes away from my front door. Or, it could mean a trip to Sears Point Raceway which is approximately 40 minutes from my front door. Either way, I will most likely be playing more rounds of golf, and getting in more track time during the week then both of you put together.
That is why I say, "more than most - probably".
The other reason "why" I would want 700 horsepower in a GTR, might have something to do with the fact that I have the training, experience and understanding of "how" to handle such a car on public streets. Therefore, the car would "need" to be "streetable" in order for me to consider it. "Streetable" by my definition simply means not a pain in the **S to drive every "other" day - if I so selected.
Hope that answers your questions.
------------------------------------
Brammo,
Based on what I think I hear you saying, it sounds like you would definitely recommend some additional Transmission work - IF - I planned on using the G50? Did I read you correctly. If so, can you recommend another Tranny other than the G50 for the type of application that I am thinking about - one that would work with the LS1/LS6 AND fit in the GTR as well?
Also, being in California, there will be Emissions Regs to deal with, so CATS would be in play as well. However, this is another great reason why 700 is such a good number for this car - the highway robbery of power that CATS offer lower HP cars, will not be in great effect with a 700 hp set-up.
How would you handle the O2-Sensors and CATS regarding the LS1/LS6? I know about the low Ohm Resister strategy for the O2's, but what about the CATS?
Still, I would be a little concerned about being able to deal with the State of California on Smog related Regs carrying 700 ponies around. Being able to turn the Boost up, or down may not help this. It might be nice at the track, or on the streets, but during the Smog Check this California "Certificate" thing could be an issue at those levels???
L2
L2,
The state of california has a limited number of "get out of jail free" certificates when it comes to smogging, there are only 500 a year and they have used up nearly 300 for this year. If you want more information drop me an email.
There are high performance cats out there, we are installing on an LS6 high HP 7.0 liter in the coming months and also have a solution on paper (cad, more accurately) for a twin turbo solution with cats!
cb@brammo.com
The state of california has a limited number of "get out of jail free" certificates when it comes to smogging, there are only 500 a year and they have used up nearly 300 for this year. If you want more information drop me an email.
There are high performance cats out there, we are installing on an LS6 high HP 7.0 liter in the coming months and also have a solution on paper (cad, more accurately) for a twin turbo solution with cats!
cb@brammo.com
With twin turbo's and cats in a hot climate.... I think you will suffer severelly with heat problems in the engine bay.
Cat's and turbo's are add on's to the orginal design and will bring many 'development' issues.
I use my car more than most, I drive to work, go on track days, test it down the strip and generally use any excuse to nip out ......and quite frankly the car is as good at this as any ferrari etc... it needs looking after with regular checks on things but it's behaved impecably.
However mine is standard factory in as much as it has a high power NA chevy small block mated to a Porsche gearbox.
I would love to see a twin turbo package developed for the Ultima (my wife would have to restrain me from getting it) but it could'nt just be a bolt on affair if you want it to be streetable.
Cat's and turbo's are add on's to the orginal design and will bring many 'development' issues.
I use my car more than most, I drive to work, go on track days, test it down the strip and generally use any excuse to nip out ......and quite frankly the car is as good at this as any ferrari etc... it needs looking after with regular checks on things but it's behaved impecably.
However mine is standard factory in as much as it has a high power NA chevy small block mated to a Porsche gearbox.
I would love to see a twin turbo package developed for the Ultima (my wife would have to restrain me from getting it) but it could'nt just be a bolt on affair if you want it to be streetable.
L2,
Sorry, I don't think I understand you. In your original post you were going on about how much you were going to drive it, now you say you'll only be driving it to the golf club from time to time.
You probably will get more track time than me. Then again, I'm selling my Ultima for the very reason that I don't have the time to race at the moment. Therefore it'll be quite easy to get more track time than me. However, I don't think that the amount of track time should you'll be getting should make this thread degenerate into another "L2 waves his willy" fest.
As far as how much racing experience you or anybody else has. I don't really care, just as long as they enjoy whatever it is they do with their cars.
Am I being thick here?
James
Sorry, I don't think I understand you. In your original post you were going on about how much you were going to drive it, now you say you'll only be driving it to the golf club from time to time.
You probably will get more track time than me. Then again, I'm selling my Ultima for the very reason that I don't have the time to race at the moment. Therefore it'll be quite easy to get more track time than me. However, I don't think that the amount of track time should you'll be getting should make this thread degenerate into another "L2 waves his willy" fest.
As far as how much racing experience you or anybody else has. I don't really care, just as long as they enjoy whatever it is they do with their cars.
Am I being thick here?
James
now [B]"Am I being thick here?"[/B]
That is a very good question. YOU are the one who felt the NEED to ask a sarcastic question about "why I needed 700 horsepower".
I answered you with a technical response. Rather than stick to the subject matter about Inertial Momentum and dialog on the technical nature of a Mass In Motion, you decided to twist the thread way out of proportion (like I've seen you do with others on this forum) to your liking.
Can't you stick to what is relevant, and drop the petty, childish predilection for the irrelevant? Stop trying to get personal. Trust me when I say - you don't know me that well.
L2
That is a very good question. YOU are the one who felt the NEED to ask a sarcastic question about "why I needed 700 horsepower".
I answered you with a technical response. Rather than stick to the subject matter about Inertial Momentum and dialog on the technical nature of a Mass In Motion, you decided to twist the thread way out of proportion (like I've seen you do with others on this forum) to your liking.
Can't you stick to what is relevant, and drop the petty, childish predilection for the irrelevant? Stop trying to get personal. Trust me when I say - you don't know me that well.
L2
Back to related subject.......
I have just gone to work and back (30 miles each way), the car cooled totally between each journey.
Upon arriving back in the garage I have opened the back and left it for 15mins while I sorted myself out prior to adjusting the throttle cable.
Anyway getting the air filter off was a challenge (without gloves) it was absolutelly red hot, thats top bottom and the element. So is the rocker covers carb etc etc...
The car was running nice and cool below 90c and it isn't that hot outside and I was constantly travelly.
Whats this mean??? even without Turbo's the engine bay gets silly hot wven when running at normal temperature.
Also.... this must be robbing me of power if even the element is to hot to touch... or am I being nieve?
By the way my car is a Can-am and I suspect GTR's don't suffer the problem as air will go through the scoop.
I have just gone to work and back (30 miles each way), the car cooled totally between each journey.
Upon arriving back in the garage I have opened the back and left it for 15mins while I sorted myself out prior to adjusting the throttle cable.
Anyway getting the air filter off was a challenge (without gloves) it was absolutelly red hot, thats top bottom and the element. So is the rocker covers carb etc etc...
The car was running nice and cool below 90c and it isn't that hot outside and I was constantly travelly.
Whats this mean??? even without Turbo's the engine bay gets silly hot wven when running at normal temperature.
Also.... this must be robbing me of power if even the element is to hot to touch... or am I being nieve?
By the way my car is a Can-am and I suspect GTR's don't suffer the problem as air will go through the scoop.
I have a Range Rover and the JBA Falcon kit car both fitted with thermostat controlled electric fans on the rad.
Both cars will switch the fans on some minutes after arriving home. This demonstrates that the heat soak from the engine is creating a thermal siphon in the cooling system that the fan then deals with.
I suspect that the length of the pipes in the Ultima will prevent this from happening. Perhaps what we need is an air thermostat in the top of the engine bay that switches on the A/C fan and/or a fan fitted to the oil cooler.
This would help to move some of the hot air inside the engine bay.
Steve
Both cars will switch the fans on some minutes after arriving home. This demonstrates that the heat soak from the engine is creating a thermal siphon in the cooling system that the fan then deals with.
I suspect that the length of the pipes in the Ultima will prevent this from happening. Perhaps what we need is an air thermostat in the top of the engine bay that switches on the A/C fan and/or a fan fitted to the oil cooler.
This would help to move some of the hot air inside the engine bay.
Steve
Steve_D said: I have a Range Rover and the JBA Falcon kit car both fitted with thermostat controlled electric fans on the rad.
Both cars will switch the fans on some minutes after arriving home. This demonstrates that the heat soak from the engine is creating a thermal siphon in the cooling system that the fan then deals with.
I suspect that the length of the pipes in the Ultima will prevent this from happening. Perhaps what we need is an air thermostat in the top of the engine bay that switches on the A/C fan and/or a fan fitted to the oil cooler.
This would help to move some of the hot air inside the engine bay.
Steve
My thoughts exactly. RS Components do a 'kit' which has a very varied scale, and consists of a thermo-probe on a long wire for £38. It has a relay output, and you can set the hysteresis (ramp up and down time) by adjusting pots. I also thought about bringing the oil cooler fan on at the same time as the air con fan. Both fan units should be sucking cold air in from the sides, and therefore allowing hot ait to rise out of the vents at the top.
I was also considering fitting 80m PC fans - one on each of the six vents as they would help air flow, are cheap (£3 trade ea) and are 12volt.
This is something I am going to install myself.
ultimaandy said: Back to related subject.......
I have just gone to work and back (30 miles each way), the car cooled totally between each journey.
Upon arriving back in the garage I have opened the back and left it for 15mins while I sorted myself out prior to adjusting the throttle cable.
Anyway getting the air filter off was a challenge (without gloves) it was absolutelly red hot, thats top bottom and the element. So is the rocker covers carb etc etc...
The car was running nice and cool below 90c and it isn't that hot outside and I was constantly travelly.
Whats this mean??? even without Turbo's the engine bay gets silly hot wven when running at normal temperature.
Also.... this must be robbing me of power if even the element is to hot to touch... or am I being nieve?
By the way my car is a Can-am and I suspect GTR's don't suffer the problem as air will go through the scoop.
Stig had mentioned he was also concerned about engine compartment temp. I had mentioned he may consider placing a small cooling fan at the rear of the engine bay, between the exhaust tips. The fan would pull cool air into the engine compartment and blow it out the back.
check it out... US-GTR
I suggested this to Stig a while back and now agree with his responce.
The hot air is trapped high up in the engine cover. The fan will pull air from the point of least resistance ie. from under the car and from the wheel wells.
It may have some effect but not as much as we would like.
Steve
I suggested this to Stig a while back and now agree with his responce.
The hot air is trapped high up in the engine cover. The fan will pull air from the point of least resistance ie. from under the car and from the wheel wells.
It may have some effect but not as much as we would like.
Steve
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