Problem with CV joint bolts on CanAm
Discussion
This is the second time the CanAm has been on a ramp truck.(don't know what you call it in the U.K.). The first time was when we picked up the car in Boston
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The second time was today when it was on the highway for the first time. Felt a little shimmy in the front wheels, so was going to stop at the tires shop and have them re-balance the front wheels. Pulled into the shopping plaza that the store was located in, and the car ceased to move. I was afraid that I had lost a CV joint, or axle like someone else I talked to. Upon lifting the engine cover, there was the CV joint at the hub, just hanging there, with 4 of the bolts gone, one ready to fall out of the dangling hub, , and one badly bent, still in the joint. If I could have gotten the bent one out of the hub, I would have borrowed a couple of bolts from the other side, and limped back to the shop. So a call to the auto club, and up on the truck she went. Found some old bolts in the shop from when I changed the CVs on my wife's long gone Scorpio about 5 years ago,(see, never throw anything out)so was able to have it back together in a short time.
I know I torqued these bolts to 30Lbs. when I installed the axles, because I was concerned that this was high for the hex. head socket to take.
I'm concluding that all the jerking the car was doing when we were trying to map the computer, must have contributed to them coming loose.
When the side was repaired, we checked the other hub, and found 3 of the bolts were loose. The bolts on the gearbox hubs which are a larger diameter, were tight.
I strongly suggest that the head of each bolt be drilled, and use .025" safety wire to lock all the bolts together. Not sure if thread locker is strong enough.
We lucked out this time, with only a little paint scraped off the lower control arm.
Hope this experience will be of some help to others.
Regards
Jack
p.s. Car sure created a lot of attention while I was waiting for the auto club. Finally, in answer to what kind of car is it, and being tired of trying to explain it was an Ultima, not Altima, I just said it was a "Broken"
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The second time was today when it was on the highway for the first time. Felt a little shimmy in the front wheels, so was going to stop at the tires shop and have them re-balance the front wheels. Pulled into the shopping plaza that the store was located in, and the car ceased to move. I was afraid that I had lost a CV joint, or axle like someone else I talked to. Upon lifting the engine cover, there was the CV joint at the hub, just hanging there, with 4 of the bolts gone, one ready to fall out of the dangling hub, , and one badly bent, still in the joint. If I could have gotten the bent one out of the hub, I would have borrowed a couple of bolts from the other side, and limped back to the shop. So a call to the auto club, and up on the truck she went. Found some old bolts in the shop from when I changed the CVs on my wife's long gone Scorpio about 5 years ago,(see, never throw anything out)so was able to have it back together in a short time.
I know I torqued these bolts to 30Lbs. when I installed the axles, because I was concerned that this was high for the hex. head socket to take.
I'm concluding that all the jerking the car was doing when we were trying to map the computer, must have contributed to them coming loose.
When the side was repaired, we checked the other hub, and found 3 of the bolts were loose. The bolts on the gearbox hubs which are a larger diameter, were tight.
I strongly suggest that the head of each bolt be drilled, and use .025" safety wire to lock all the bolts together. Not sure if thread locker is strong enough.
We lucked out this time, with only a little paint scraped off the lower control arm.
Hope this experience will be of some help to others.
Regards
Jack
p.s. Car sure created a lot of attention while I was waiting for the auto club. Finally, in answer to what kind of car is it, and being tired of trying to explain it was an Ultima, not Altima, I just said it was a "Broken"
Jack,
Say it ain't so!
I thought this car was designed to tight specs? Now, really I am confused. Is the bolt size wrong? Did you study it to find out exactly why it came off? Where the treads broken in any way? Did something "shear"? Did you notice any "impact" damage to anything near the CV's?
Please - this is very important stuff, here. You are talking about a MAJOR component of the vehicle that plays two (2) major roles in the stability, and movement of the car.
Here is a list of things that are "allowed" to fall off, Jack:
Door Trim
Helicopter Lens
Switches
Shifter Knob
Turn Signal Arm
etc., etc., etc...
Things NOT allowed to fall off of ANY car, Jack:
CV Joints
CV Joint Mounting Hardware
Suspension and Steering Components
Drive Train Components
Fuel Tanks
Doors
Wheels (ESPECIALLY ANY PART THAT IS "NEAR" A ROTATING WHEEL!!!!!)
etc., etc., etc....
Running your car on a Chassis Dyno should NOT have caused the NUTS to come off, OR EVEN GET LOOSE - no - no - no!
Please tell me you are only kidding?
I cannot imagine putting ANY car the road at any speed where major components such as this, and yes even steering (yes - this too could be impacted of something shattered at speed because it fell into the interior of a rotating wheel - my goodness!) was so prone to falling off!
Please post another line that reads: "I was ONLY pulling your leg - ha, ha, ha."
This is NOT a part of the car that should need "Cotter Pins" for goodness sakes, Jack!
When building aircraft flight control components, you will use very similar devices that are Cotter Pin "like". But, that is because the Ailerons CANNOT come off in flight. If they do, then you have absolutely no way of controlling "Roll/Bank Angle", or stability about the Longitudinal Axis of the aircraft. It is considered to be a Mission Critical component.
Likewise, should NOT the CV Joint be considered "Mission Critical", too? Failure here at say 150 mph (or, any high rate of speed for that matter) could really add up to a very bad hair day - gee wiz. I'm just glad you were not really "driving" the car hard on a track somewhere.
NOT GOOD - NOT GOOD AT ALL. A "Cause" must be found. have you spoken with the factor yet?
L2
Say it ain't so!
I thought this car was designed to tight specs? Now, really I am confused. Is the bolt size wrong? Did you study it to find out exactly why it came off? Where the treads broken in any way? Did something "shear"? Did you notice any "impact" damage to anything near the CV's?
Please - this is very important stuff, here. You are talking about a MAJOR component of the vehicle that plays two (2) major roles in the stability, and movement of the car.
Here is a list of things that are "allowed" to fall off, Jack:
Door Trim
Helicopter Lens
Switches
Shifter Knob
Turn Signal Arm
etc., etc., etc...
Things NOT allowed to fall off of ANY car, Jack:
CV Joints
CV Joint Mounting Hardware
Suspension and Steering Components
Drive Train Components
Fuel Tanks
Doors
Wheels (ESPECIALLY ANY PART THAT IS "NEAR" A ROTATING WHEEL!!!!!)
etc., etc., etc....
Running your car on a Chassis Dyno should NOT have caused the NUTS to come off, OR EVEN GET LOOSE - no - no - no!
Please tell me you are only kidding?
I cannot imagine putting ANY car the road at any speed where major components such as this, and yes even steering (yes - this too could be impacted of something shattered at speed because it fell into the interior of a rotating wheel - my goodness!) was so prone to falling off!
Please post another line that reads: "I was ONLY pulling your leg - ha, ha, ha."
This is NOT a part of the car that should need "Cotter Pins" for goodness sakes, Jack!
When building aircraft flight control components, you will use very similar devices that are Cotter Pin "like". But, that is because the Ailerons CANNOT come off in flight. If they do, then you have absolutely no way of controlling "Roll/Bank Angle", or stability about the Longitudinal Axis of the aircraft. It is considered to be a Mission Critical component.
Likewise, should NOT the CV Joint be considered "Mission Critical", too? Failure here at say 150 mph (or, any high rate of speed for that matter) could really add up to a very bad hair day - gee wiz. I'm just glad you were not really "driving" the car hard on a track somewhere.
NOT GOOD - NOT GOOD AT ALL. A "Cause" must be found. have you spoken with the factor yet?
L2
Forgot to ask....
Anybody else EVER experience this same problem? Or, is this a "one-off" situation?
This is very serious - no doubt.
Jack, you said that you TQ'd the Nuts to 30lbs as instructed - but what exactly did you use?
Not all TQ Wrenches are equal - some are off - some are way off. Brand Name would be nice?
Oh - did I say this was very serious - let me say it again just in case - this is darn serious!
This is not what I wanted to hear. This REALLY sets me back because it "COULD" (I'm not saying it "DOES", yet) go to the very heart of "Mechanical Tolerance and Design Specifications".
However, I think you said that BOTH sides were loose...
Anybody else EVER experience this same problem? Or, is this a "one-off" situation?
This is very serious - no doubt.
Jack, you said that you TQ'd the Nuts to 30lbs as instructed - but what exactly did you use?
Not all TQ Wrenches are equal - some are off - some are way off. Brand Name would be nice?
Oh - did I say this was very serious - let me say it again just in case - this is darn serious!
This is not what I wanted to hear. This REALLY sets me back because it "COULD" (I'm not saying it "DOES", yet) go to the very heart of "Mechanical Tolerance and Design Specifications".
However, I think you said that BOTH sides were loose...
A client had a problem with a CV joint going out, but the bolts were fine. Apparently the vendor that supplies them to Ultima didn't do the right thing in terms of greasing. There was grease in the CV but not done very well and it burnt up within the first hundred miles or so. I think this was an isolated incident, and the factory was very quick to resolve the issue and get the vendor to deliver a replacement. We now dissasemble them and repack the CVs to insure there is no problem.
Craig
cb@brammo.com
Craig
cb@brammo.com
L2
No need to get too excited.
All that happened was that the bolts came loose, probably from trying to drive it while adjusting the EFI computer.Some of the jerking was whip-lash country.
The reason for my post was to inform other builders of the problem of having these bolts unlocked. They probably take more momentum abuse than any other fsteners in the car.
Being cap screws, the normal method of using locking tabs will not work, so I suggest to wire lock them, or keep a good and constant watch on them.
That's what this forum is for.
Craig, after talking to you about lack of grease in the CVs, in this case, that was no problem, or at least until all the grease exited the joint when it fell off. We added some CV grease when it was re-assembled. Thanks for the heads up.
Regards to all
Jack
No need to get too excited.
All that happened was that the bolts came loose, probably from trying to drive it while adjusting the EFI computer.Some of the jerking was whip-lash country.
The reason for my post was to inform other builders of the problem of having these bolts unlocked. They probably take more momentum abuse than any other fsteners in the car.
Being cap screws, the normal method of using locking tabs will not work, so I suggest to wire lock them, or keep a good and constant watch on them.
That's what this forum is for.
Craig, after talking to you about lack of grease in the CVs, in this case, that was no problem, or at least until all the grease exited the joint when it fell off. We added some CV grease when it was re-assembled. Thanks for the heads up.
Regards to all
Jack
Lock tite and marking paint. I've tried drilling bolt heads for safety wire (with the jigs and a drill press and lots of oil) and have had little luck. Aircraft Spruce sells aircraft grade hardware that is predrilled for saftey wire in lots as small as a single fastener if needed.
Thanks for the heads up on the car Jack.
ken
Thanks for the heads up on the car Jack.
ken
Chris.
Good idea to mark the bolts to see if they're moving, but I'd like to cure the problem so there won't be a disaster if I forget to do an inpection.
James
They were the bolts that came from the factory. There seems to be enough thread,about 3/4", but what concerns me is that the hub bolts are the same ones that were on my wife's old Scorpio, which has about 1/3 the horsepower.
Ken
These are socket head cap screws, and are metric which Aircraft Spruce would not have. A hex bolt would fit, (I know because I had to temporarily use one), but you could not get a socket on it to torque it, although a crow's foot could be used. Not easy to drill but possible.
http://home.attbi.com/~rosenracing2/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-574415.html
These are the same type of bolts that are used in the hubs, and are actually easier to drill than regular hex head. Treat the metal as if it was stainless steel; new and sharp drills, slow drill speed, and heavy pressure.
Going to order new bolts on Monday, and drill them. Will probably do the gearbox side too, which I think are 10mm. The hub ones are 8mm.
Just referred to the bible, Carrol Smith's "Engineer to Win", page 144. "To get proper torque on a socket head cap screw, you have to use a hardened washer under it".
BTW, just heard that Carrol died the other day. When I would design something, or use a fastener, I would say to myself "Would Carrol Smith approve of the way I'm doing this". If I felt he wouldn't, I'd redo it.
I have a friend who knew him, and he couldn't say enough nice things about the man.
If you're involved in racing, or building a car, you should have all his books.
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Sunday 8th June 02:47
Good idea to mark the bolts to see if they're moving, but I'd like to cure the problem so there won't be a disaster if I forget to do an inpection.
James
They were the bolts that came from the factory. There seems to be enough thread,about 3/4", but what concerns me is that the hub bolts are the same ones that were on my wife's old Scorpio, which has about 1/3 the horsepower.
Ken
These are socket head cap screws, and are metric which Aircraft Spruce would not have. A hex bolt would fit, (I know because I had to temporarily use one), but you could not get a socket on it to torque it, although a crow's foot could be used. Not easy to drill but possible.
http://home.attbi.com/~rosenracing2/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-574415.html
These are the same type of bolts that are used in the hubs, and are actually easier to drill than regular hex head. Treat the metal as if it was stainless steel; new and sharp drills, slow drill speed, and heavy pressure.
Going to order new bolts on Monday, and drill them. Will probably do the gearbox side too, which I think are 10mm. The hub ones are 8mm.
Just referred to the bible, Carrol Smith's "Engineer to Win", page 144. "To get proper torque on a socket head cap screw, you have to use a hardened washer under it".
BTW, just heard that Carrol died the other day. When I would design something, or use a fastener, I would say to myself "Would Carrol Smith approve of the way I'm doing this". If I felt he wouldn't, I'd redo it.
I have a friend who knew him, and he couldn't say enough nice things about the man.
If you're involved in racing, or building a car, you should have all his books.
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Sunday 8th June 02:47
I have had problems with the CV joint bolts vibrating lose. I opted for a 'generours' torque setting and a locking washer. This seems have solved the problem.
Not sure why the factory does not supply a locking washer or lock plate.
B1 ECC has also had the same problem so you are not alone.
Not sure why the factory does not supply a locking washer or lock plate.
B1 ECC has also had the same problem so you are not alone.
The CV joint bolts on my Mk4 are longer than that Jack (can't remember exactly how long offhand). Obviously the design is different, but I'd be inclined to investigate whether you can get a longer bolt in there. I've never had any trouble with mine undoing (but then I do use a washer, as you suggest).
Bad news about Carrol. I've got several of his books, and he was one guy who knew what he was talking about.
James
>> Edited by james on Sunday 8th June 11:19
Bad news about Carrol. I've got several of his books, and he was one guy who knew what he was talking about.
James
>> Edited by james on Sunday 8th June 11:19
james said: The CV joint bolts on my Mk4 are longer than that Jack (can't remember exactly how long offhand).
>> Edited by james on Sunday 8th June 11:19
James.
What I meant to say is there's about 3/4" of thread that screws into the hub. That should be enough, but some kind of locking is needed.
Good to her that I'm not the only one who had a problem.
Hope this heads-up will avoid others having it too!
Jack
I'm happy with it if you are happy with it.
You are right - there is nothing to get excited about when your CV Joint, connecting rod, and mounting hardware, vibrates itself to pieces.
I was a fool for getting excited over something so minor. I forgot that the car will drive normally with, or without an intact CV Housing.
How foolish of me. What was I thinking. Silly me.
You are right - there is nothing to get excited about when your CV Joint, connecting rod, and mounting hardware, vibrates itself to pieces.
I was a fool for getting excited over something so minor. I forgot that the car will drive normally with, or without an intact CV Housing.
How foolish of me. What was I thinking. Silly me.
L2,
I don't think the issue is whether it's important or not. The issue is that you appear to get somewhat overexcited over these things. Of course part of the drivetrain coming loose can have serious consequenses.
Jack was giving us a heads up about a problem that he had found, and asking if anybody else had a similar problem with their Ultima, and if so how they fixed it. You then made out that it was some major design issue and sounded like you were wetting yourself with fear over this huge issue. Somewhat blowing it out of proportion IMO.
I know that Americans often appear a tad excitable to us Europeans. However, you seem to take it to extremes sometimes
James
I don't think the issue is whether it's important or not. The issue is that you appear to get somewhat overexcited over these things. Of course part of the drivetrain coming loose can have serious consequenses.
Jack was giving us a heads up about a problem that he had found, and asking if anybody else had a similar problem with their Ultima, and if so how they fixed it. You then made out that it was some major design issue and sounded like you were wetting yourself with fear over this huge issue. Somewhat blowing it out of proportion IMO.
I know that Americans often appear a tad excitable to us Europeans. However, you seem to take it to extremes sometimes
James
L2
Please don’t take any comments made about your postings personally. It is just that they seem a little over-reactionary.
Some recent posting by others, particularly regarding chassis stiffening, could certainly cause alarm to newcomers, but it is well worth remembering that the Ultima, in its ‘standard’ form, is far more capable than the average driver. Only when the intention is to explore the limits, will such modifications be necessary.
A glance at previous postings on this forum will indicate the general level of satisfaction of this marquee to be … HIGH!
Please don’t take any comments made about your postings personally. It is just that they seem a little over-reactionary.
Some recent posting by others, particularly regarding chassis stiffening, could certainly cause alarm to newcomers, but it is well worth remembering that the Ultima, in its ‘standard’ form, is far more capable than the average driver. Only when the intention is to explore the limits, will such modifications be necessary.
A glance at previous postings on this forum will indicate the general level of satisfaction of this marquee to be … HIGH!
gt_bwoy said: L2
Please don’t take any comments made about your postings personally. It is just that they seem a little over-reactionary.
Some recent posting by others, particularly regarding chassis stiffening, could certainly cause alarm to newcomers, but it is well worth remembering that the Ultima, in its ‘standard’ form, is far more capable than the average driver. Only when the intention is to explore the limits, will such modifications be necessary.
A glance at previous postings on this forum will indicate the general level of satisfaction of this marquee to be … HIGH!
Sorry to fuel the negatives, but I'd also reserve making judgements until you've either built, or at least driven an Ultima.
Harsh, but fair.
Stig said:
Sorry to fuel the negatives, but I'd also reserve making judgements until you've either built, or at least driven an Ultima.
Harsh, but fair.
True. Very true. It's easy to make a snap judgement based on second hand statements, assumptions and misinterpretations.
The only way to find out whether an Ultima is the car for you is to try one out. You might find that you love everything about it, but can't live with the lack of storage, or that you're too tall to fit in, too short to reach the pedals or too fat to sit in the seat.
James
L2 my car has standard chassis (comonly know as a work or art) 440bhp (the same as the Factory Red demonstrator which is seen in all the Video clips) Have done over 3000 miles now and over 12 drag racing starts, the Drive Shafts on my car are fine. Only thing I have done to them which isn't in the manual is put alittle sealant around the jionts to stop the grease coming out, and that would not stop them coming undone. So Don't worry about it, just torque them up and check them once a month for piece of mind.
Just build it like the factory tell us, and you will never be dissapointed, Trust me... I ain't no Shuy so I'll never push the old girls to there limit...
Lets just Drive and be happy lads ......
Just build it like the factory tell us, and you will never be dissapointed, Trust me... I ain't no Shuy so I'll never push the old girls to there limit...
Lets just Drive and be happy lads ......
Driving and CV Joint update. Not even going to touch the above posts.
Picked up some extra cap head screws for the CV joints yesterday and sometine today when I'm not attempting to attach the headlight lenses, will put them in the mill and drill holes in the heads for safety wire.
Probably close to 100 miles on the car now. I say probably, because after about 10 miles of driving, the Stack speedometer starts going whacky, either going to zero, or jumping to all different speeds randomly. I'm using a Porsche sender mounted in the gearbox, so it's either the sender, the Stack head(doubtfull), or the Stack speed amplifier(possibly), because the problem seems to be heat sensitive. When the car cools for a while, the speed returns to normal until it gets hot again.
Had a chance last night to start exploring the cornering ability on the entrance ramp to the highway.
I enjoyed it, but I don't think my wife did. It was a 270' turn, and the car was solid. Could have gone 20% faster with ease. Since I still have mis-matched tires on the car (PZeros for the rear haven't arrived, using Michelin Sports)discretion is being used.
As for ride comfort, it's not like my C5, more like my Cobra which is a track car with a racing suspension. My wife says it's comfortable (referring to the Ultima seats). We had talked about a 1000 mile round trip in it once it's de-bugged. I'll have to see what her answer is now.
The score to date.
Driver satisfaction 98%
Willy waving 150%
Jack
Picked up some extra cap head screws for the CV joints yesterday and sometine today when I'm not attempting to attach the headlight lenses, will put them in the mill and drill holes in the heads for safety wire.
Probably close to 100 miles on the car now. I say probably, because after about 10 miles of driving, the Stack speedometer starts going whacky, either going to zero, or jumping to all different speeds randomly. I'm using a Porsche sender mounted in the gearbox, so it's either the sender, the Stack head(doubtfull), or the Stack speed amplifier(possibly), because the problem seems to be heat sensitive. When the car cools for a while, the speed returns to normal until it gets hot again.
Had a chance last night to start exploring the cornering ability on the entrance ramp to the highway.
I enjoyed it, but I don't think my wife did. It was a 270' turn, and the car was solid. Could have gone 20% faster with ease. Since I still have mis-matched tires on the car (PZeros for the rear haven't arrived, using Michelin Sports)discretion is being used.
As for ride comfort, it's not like my C5, more like my Cobra which is a track car with a racing suspension. My wife says it's comfortable (referring to the Ultima seats). We had talked about a 1000 mile round trip in it once it's de-bugged. I'll have to see what her answer is now.
The score to date.
Driver satisfaction 98%
Willy waving 150%
Jack
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