Attacking the CanAm Heat Problem
Discussion
Did a 140 mile shakedown trip to Boston for a meeting the night before our planned 1300 mile round trip to Toronto. Aside from sitting under a bridge for 2 hours while a rain storm diminished, everything checked out well. While we were sitting there under the bridge thoughts of the heat problem kept us busy formulating some sort of solution. When I got home that night a cardboard mockup was made, and at 5 am on the way out, we stopped at the shop and converted the cardboard into aluminum.
The angle piece that tapes to the windscreen is .060", as is the arms. The baffle was made out of .025, so we could do some creative bending enroute.
The tape is 2" black duct tape.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793871.html
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793875.html
We really gave it a test since temps reached almost 90'. The device certainly helped,but not cured, and when the sun would go behind a cloud a dramatic change could be felt. A lot of heat is generated by the glass windscreen.
The theory is to force cool air into the hot air that is being sucked out of the engine air intake.
There is still some tweaking to be done, such as the angle of the duct, but it certainly made a difference.
Will keep updating as the metal gets re-bent.
Plese feel free to try your own designs.
Jack
The angle piece that tapes to the windscreen is .060", as is the arms. The baffle was made out of .025, so we could do some creative bending enroute.
The tape is 2" black duct tape.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793871.html
http://home.comcast.net/~rosenracing5/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-793875.html
We really gave it a test since temps reached almost 90'. The device certainly helped,but not cured, and when the sun would go behind a cloud a dramatic change could be felt. A lot of heat is generated by the glass windscreen.
The theory is to force cool air into the hot air that is being sucked out of the engine air intake.
There is still some tweaking to be done, such as the angle of the duct, but it certainly made a difference.
Will keep updating as the metal gets re-bent.
Plese feel free to try your own designs.
Jack
Jack,
Its good to see you driving the Can Am at every opportunity!
Your wind deflector looks interesting.
How about some type of ducting scoping air fom around the base (side) of the windscreen next to the mirrors and ducting that inside?
I dont know how much air flow you would get but it may look quite neat and combined with your scope it may be enough.
Just a thought.
Andy
Its good to see you driving the Can Am at every opportunity!
Your wind deflector looks interesting.
How about some type of ducting scoping air fom around the base (side) of the windscreen next to the mirrors and ducting that inside?
I dont know how much air flow you would get but it may look quite neat and combined with your scope it may be enough.
Just a thought.
Andy
doc_fudge said:
Jack,
How about some type of ducting scoping air fom around the base (side) of the windscreen next to the mirrors and ducting that inside?
Andy
Andy
The factory suggested some form of scoops in the side windows. Since we plan on installing the side windows this week, we'll look into it. There might be some aircraft parts that might work.
Jack
Hi Jack
I had a pop out scoop on the pilots window of my Mooney that worked great. When the fold down window was open, this rotated around and through the opening into the slip stream. I think it was called the "Cool Scoop" and was sold by Sporty's. I don't know if it would work but the theory behind it might. Good luck.
Brad Z
I had a pop out scoop on the pilots window of my Mooney that worked great. When the fold down window was open, this rotated around and through the opening into the slip stream. I think it was called the "Cool Scoop" and was sold by Sporty's. I don't know if it would work but the theory behind it might. Good luck.
Brad Z
Drove the CanAm home today from the shop, a distance of about 21 miles. Sky was overcast and temp. about 75'F. Had the side windows installed, and the overhead air scoop removed. Car was brutally hot, hotter than I remember it under the same conditions without the side windows. Stopped, and re-installed (taped) the overhead air scoop, and a big difference was noted.
Mark, Andy, and Brad.
Any extra air coming into the cockpit will help, but I feel that the more central the fresh air, the better to fight that blast furnace coming over your shoulder.
The side window is only 5.25" high so I don't think that the Kool scoop will fit Brad.
Mark, the naca scoop would work, but if you're going to be that low, aiming it at the feet might be better if you can move it forward.
There is a bit of a top to bottom curve to the side window, so all inserted devices might not fit. Aircraft Spruce has several air vents that might work if the curvature will allow it.
Andy, would like to know more about the GTR fixture. That's what the factory has suggested.
Jack
Mark, Andy, and Brad.
Any extra air coming into the cockpit will help, but I feel that the more central the fresh air, the better to fight that blast furnace coming over your shoulder.
The side window is only 5.25" high so I don't think that the Kool scoop will fit Brad.
Mark, the naca scoop would work, but if you're going to be that low, aiming it at the feet might be better if you can move it forward.
There is a bit of a top to bottom curve to the side window, so all inserted devices might not fit. Aircraft Spruce has several air vents that might work if the curvature will allow it.
Andy, would like to know more about the GTR fixture. That's what the factory has suggested.
Jack
I'm going to experiment with a ducted airflow from the low front aperture through a wired duct and into the cockpit via the Fuse/Relay panel on one side and the Storage panel (Joke) on the other side.
This will allow the air into the footwell without cutting any bodywork just to see. OK, fumes etc but can introduce a flap valve which will close when not moving in traffic and could duct to the heater circulator blower as well.
This will allow the air into the footwell without cutting any bodywork just to see. OK, fumes etc but can introduce a flap valve which will close when not moving in traffic and could duct to the heater circulator blower as well.
Jack,
I was simply thinking of some type of flexible ducting that ran from the base of the windscreen (at the side), next to the mirrors, but I didnt take into account the fitting of the side windows...so to quote Homer Simpson...DOH!
Ive just gone back and reread this thread and may have another solution.
I gathered from your original post the alot (most?) of the heat was coming back into the cabin through the engine air intake just over your shoulder.
If Ive read this correctly, how about fitting some type of air box such that the air intake is seperated from the rest of the engine bay and sealed so that no air can flow back into the cabin.
You would kill two birds with one stone in that you would stop hot air entering the cabin and also ensure that the air entering the engine was as cool as possible hence increasing hp.
What do you think??
Andy
I was simply thinking of some type of flexible ducting that ran from the base of the windscreen (at the side), next to the mirrors, but I didnt take into account the fitting of the side windows...so to quote Homer Simpson...DOH!
Ive just gone back and reread this thread and may have another solution.
I gathered from your original post the alot (most?) of the heat was coming back into the cabin through the engine air intake just over your shoulder.
If Ive read this correctly, how about fitting some type of air box such that the air intake is seperated from the rest of the engine bay and sealed so that no air can flow back into the cabin.
You would kill two birds with one stone in that you would stop hot air entering the cabin and also ensure that the air entering the engine was as cool as possible hence increasing hp.
What do you think??
Andy
Have you considered tackling it by blocking more of the heat from comming through in the first place?
There are ceramic fiber composits (I usually see them mixed with graphite, or just pure ceramic fibers) that are used airplane and drag car firewalls. They are fairly light but block heat extremely well.
Have you (or anyone else) tried a simular firewall material on thier Ultima?
An other though is the fiber blankets which amature bead-makers use to cool thier beads slowly... it looks like cotton, but laid in with a sheet of alum. to keep it from getting torn would also work really well to insulate.
Just some thoughts, I don't have an Ultima but I am a huge fan of them and hope to be able to build my own at some point.
-Ash
There are ceramic fiber composits (I usually see them mixed with graphite, or just pure ceramic fibers) that are used airplane and drag car firewalls. They are fairly light but block heat extremely well.
Have you (or anyone else) tried a simular firewall material on thier Ultima?
An other though is the fiber blankets which amature bead-makers use to cool thier beads slowly... it looks like cotton, but laid in with a sheet of alum. to keep it from getting torn would also work really well to insulate.
Just some thoughts, I don't have an Ultima but I am a huge fan of them and hope to be able to build my own at some point.
-Ash
I block the heat and it is extremelly effective...... however Brad can't do this because he takes his intake from the rear scoop so it needs to be free from obsticals.
The GTR windows have a very siliar if not the same shape to ours so I would expect the vents they use to fit.... you have to bear in mind that I am using my can-am with the full side screens, but I would have thought they will fit the small ones as well.
Pics should be in the build manual.
The GTR windows have a very siliar if not the same shape to ours so I would expect the vents they use to fit.... you have to bear in mind that I am using my can-am with the full side screens, but I would have thought they will fit the small ones as well.
Pics should be in the build manual.
This is the very nice response I received from Ted a while back, and I have to say that I agree with his solutions. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing them with you;
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Jack
The problem with the heat in the cockpit is that the shape that we came up with in the wind tunnel is just too efficient. All the air blows passed the screen and very little if any enters the cockpit.
The easy solution to this is to bring air from the outside of the car using the brake duct opening in the bonnet into the heater blower area with flexible ducts. We have done this on our latest demonstrator and this works extremely well. When moving a constant stream of cooling air enters into the footwall or via the dashboard vents and when stationary the fan motor has the same effect. Another addition that we made was using helicopter vents in the high side screens. This works very well also.
We always block off the air scoop on top of the rear hood for several reasons.
1/ After testing the air flow under the hood very little if any actually enters the engine bay on a Can-Am via this scoop.
2/ Air to the carb enters via the side vents over the petrol tanks.
3/ When the car is stationery the flow of air enters via the side vents and from under the open engine bay and exits via the 8 vents in the hood and the air scoop if not blanked off.
4/ On the safety side as we use carbs on our engines a blowback will come into the cockpit which could be nasty.
5/ Blocking of the air scoop (we put the grill on and have a 1" thick layer of dense foam behind it) does quieten the engine noise down in the cockpit particularly so if you are using solid lifters.
If you try out the above I am confident that you will be cooler in the cockpit.
Best regards
Ted
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Im sure in the end I'll do one or all of the above suggestions, but before that, as I replied to Ted, I'm going to endeavour to allow the brake openings to cool the brakes, and somehow find a way for the air scoop to feed cool air into the engine.
In the real world, unless the car is only going to live on the track is it necessary to cool the brakes, and to feed cool air to the engine...NO, but, hell ...what else do I have to do?
Jack
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Jack
The problem with the heat in the cockpit is that the shape that we came up with in the wind tunnel is just too efficient. All the air blows passed the screen and very little if any enters the cockpit.
The easy solution to this is to bring air from the outside of the car using the brake duct opening in the bonnet into the heater blower area with flexible ducts. We have done this on our latest demonstrator and this works extremely well. When moving a constant stream of cooling air enters into the footwall or via the dashboard vents and when stationary the fan motor has the same effect. Another addition that we made was using helicopter vents in the high side screens. This works very well also.
We always block off the air scoop on top of the rear hood for several reasons.
1/ After testing the air flow under the hood very little if any actually enters the engine bay on a Can-Am via this scoop.
2/ Air to the carb enters via the side vents over the petrol tanks.
3/ When the car is stationery the flow of air enters via the side vents and from under the open engine bay and exits via the 8 vents in the hood and the air scoop if not blanked off.
4/ On the safety side as we use carbs on our engines a blowback will come into the cockpit which could be nasty.
5/ Blocking of the air scoop (we put the grill on and have a 1" thick layer of dense foam behind it) does quieten the engine noise down in the cockpit particularly so if you are using solid lifters.
If you try out the above I am confident that you will be cooler in the cockpit.
Best regards
Ted
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Im sure in the end I'll do one or all of the above suggestions, but before that, as I replied to Ted, I'm going to endeavour to allow the brake openings to cool the brakes, and somehow find a way for the air scoop to feed cool air into the engine.
In the real world, unless the car is only going to live on the track is it necessary to cool the brakes, and to feed cool air to the engine...NO, but, hell ...what else do I have to do?
Jack
Jack
Seems like I came to similar conclusions and solution as Ted. And he also mentioned the other parts to my solution, scoop on rear clip covered and the air for the engine going into the side aperture. I was also going to look at a special air filter feed from the side openings as well - cool air for the engine will increase power as well. So cool humans and happier engine. That can't be bad.
Hope factory are going to produce kit of parts to save us reinventing the wheel.
Seems like I came to similar conclusions and solution as Ted. And he also mentioned the other parts to my solution, scoop on rear clip covered and the air for the engine going into the side aperture. I was also going to look at a special air filter feed from the side openings as well - cool air for the engine will increase power as well. So cool humans and happier engine. That can't be bad.
Hope factory are going to produce kit of parts to save us reinventing the wheel.
pashby said:
Jack
Hope factory are going to produce kit of parts to save us reinventing the wheel.
Pashby
Was thinking the same thing as I was driving home just now. While I had heard rumours of the problem, I had no idea it was so severe, and I honestly feel the factory should have made us aware of it, especially the legitimate builders!!
Am still going to, for some insane reason, try to have the engine air intake feed the engine cool air.
Might have this solved by winter, when of course I will welcome the heat.
Jack
The F40 has a very nice solution to this problem. On the bonnet underside the have duct work that mates to the center section and dumps loads of air into the cabin. It works well.
It would be great if we could buy this "kit, option" from the factory and retrofit it to our cars. It would be easy to source air from the front grill and route it back to the cabin. Make it from fiberglass and we could bond it to the bonnet.
It would be great if we could buy this "kit, option" from the factory and retrofit it to our cars. It would be easy to source air from the front grill and route it back to the cabin. Make it from fiberglass and we could bond it to the bonnet.
l drive a sport so dont have the heat source of the canam "air intake", however l have tried the ducted air from the brake duct opening. So far l have a 2 1/2" flexible duct which allows plenty of air to the brakes but still allows an air flow into the cabin at foot level. l have just acquired an air inlet duct which l plan to modify to fit the brake duct opening to capture all air at this level, directing some to the brakes and some to the cabin. l will experiment once the engine is back in.
Ultiman has just confirmed a feeling I have had for some time now. I cannot see why enclosed Ultimas don't experience problems as well. Ok, not from the rear opening of the Canam flooding the cockpit with hot air but like the Canam they have have no fresh air feed into the cockpit at foot level. Aircon when fitted cools air already in the cockpit but no fresh air gets into the footwell.
Question, don't GTR drivers suffer from stuffy air?
Same solution works would work on all Ultimas. I will certainly expect good outside air at foot level aircon or no aircon.
I think that the front ducts will provide plenty of fresh air into the footwell as well as allowing the duct to be redirected to cool brakes for track use. Street or road use would not require brake cooling under normal use I would think.
Ultiman, where did you feed the duct into the footwell? I dont know whether you have aircon.
Question, don't GTR drivers suffer from stuffy air?
Same solution works would work on all Ultimas. I will certainly expect good outside air at foot level aircon or no aircon.
I think that the front ducts will provide plenty of fresh air into the footwell as well as allowing the duct to be redirected to cool brakes for track use. Street or road use would not require brake cooling under normal use I would think.
Ultiman, where did you feed the duct into the footwell? I dont know whether you have aircon.
Mark.
Don't know how far you are long with your build, but was just driving the car, and thinking about the naca duct. You might want to try and put it just below the turn light indicator and you'd be able to direct the air flow at the passengers shins by bringing the air source over the frame at that point. You might not be able to do it on the same side as the fuse and relay panel, but should be able to get one on the other side if you can work around the door hinge and gas strut.
Jack
Don't know how far you are long with your build, but was just driving the car, and thinking about the naca duct. You might want to try and put it just below the turn light indicator and you'd be able to direct the air flow at the passengers shins by bringing the air source over the frame at that point. You might not be able to do it on the same side as the fuse and relay panel, but should be able to get one on the other side if you can work around the door hinge and gas strut.
Jack
I must sat that I agree with Ted's statements 100% as I'd came to the same conclusions myself.
I must also say that when I was having a test drive in their yellow demonstrator Ted made a point of saying that they block the scoop up on the Can-am.....
For those really worry about airflow to the carb bespite the fact that very little goes in through the scoop (on the can-am) there are air boxs out there that take air the side vents straight into the carb......
Carbon side vents like the ones on my car are also available which increase the air flowing through the engine bay massivelly.
I must also say that when I was having a test drive in their yellow demonstrator Ted made a point of saying that they block the scoop up on the Can-am.....
For those really worry about airflow to the carb bespite the fact that very little goes in through the scoop (on the can-am) there are air boxs out there that take air the side vents straight into the carb......
Carbon side vents like the ones on my car are also available which increase the air flowing through the engine bay massivelly.
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