The American Speed Myth

[Paul.B]

BHP this? HP that? Correction Factor! SAE! This Dyno ... That rolling road. My mate said ..... A bloke in a Pub knows ...........


All I take into account from what comes out of the factory, and the same argument applies to any Ultima/Porsche/Noble/TVR/Skoda, is, the cars have done world recors breaking times and in tests that can be measured.

0 - 100 - 0

Sub 10 sec standing quarter

Nearly 5 secs off the Top Gear lap

It does not matter one jot to me how much BHP any of these cars make, the one measurable that is beyond doubt is the one of time. IF the factory car really makes 720 BHP then that is how much power you need to match the factory cars times. IF it really only makes 557 BHP then that is how much power you need to make these times. G-Mans car had this claimed power and that claimed power! The one thing it did was set the times. Good on him for trying.

I don't care how much power my last car had. I knew how fast it was and I knew what it could do. I will drive my new car, find out what it is capable of and drive it within those capabilities.
If I wish to compare it to other cars I will find out what times it can achieve and compare them to other cars times.

Just my opinion and many will not care!

Paul.B

[crafty]

Stig said:

I have mentioned off-line the risks of letigious comments on here, yet certain posters seem determined to

ENOUGH of the scaremongering / semi-threats. All I have done is post information that I have found. Your own build diary is what started me thinking about this in the first place as your own dyno chart is in fact the most mysterious of them all.

If you notice, I have asked in my thread whether the CF figure in the charts is a correction factor or otherwise. I have suggested that if it is, then one should take that into account when comparing BHP to price figures. I have suggested that one should make a logical choice based on facts and should really be making a decision based on spec and reputation rather than Dyno figures.

There's nothing litigious in that, please lay off with the private and now public comments that "certain people" are making "letigious" comments, it is not helpful or meaningful or true..... Its not even technically correct, nor is is spelled correctly. "litigious" means someone that likes taking court action... so the comments can never be "litigious", someone that took action against comments would be litigious.

If a car magazine does some road tests and compares manufacturer's stated figures, and gives an opinion, is that libel? Are the discussion GTM vs GTR libelous?... no.... so lay off with the scaremongering and the comments about me breaking the law.

I would say that ALMOST EVERY person that buys an Ultima comes here for information, and EVERYONE that buys an Ultima goes through the decision making process on buying an engine.

Therefore all this type of scaremongering does is suffocate conversation on a topic that is perhaps the most important for anyone buying an Ultima.

Ultima do not sell engines, they merely recommend a company, but owners are free to chose. You may notice that every other forum has discussion about various engine options or aftermarket options.... why cant we have it here.

This is a public forum, its not owned by Ultima nor AS, in fact they almost never contribute here... this is a discussion about information that is available in the market, so you can leave out the "stern warnings" especially public ones, and the comments to the effect that I am breaking the law.

I cant see that the discussion of this topic breaks any laws or forum rules. Despite your fear of discussion over this topic, it seems to be a hot one that people want to discuss.

Edited by crafty on Monday 3rd March 05:39

[fastco]

Perhaps a simple drag race (0 to 150 say) between similarly powered cars (as quoted by engine supplier) would settle this once and for all ? How about fighting torque in August ? A mini Ultima shoot out !!

Tony


[/quote]

Hello.....what a great idea Tony...count us in......I'm sure Wilder will be along shortly with some idea's on this.


My .9 pence/2cents
The track is where fact is completly seperated from fiction
and the backs of dyno sheets are used to post notes @ will call booths and for keep'n score...ha

Cheers! Dr,Dee

Edited by fastco on Monday 3rd March 06:07

[LuckyP]

Don't look now Crafty, but there appears to be a REAL PUNTER, with REAL MONEY talking REAL SENSE about why he values a Factory spec (and build) car over one of our own number's, over on the Can-Am thread

If you are quick, you might be able to convert him to the ways of the non-approved. "look in to my eyes, not around the eyes.........."

Edited by LuckyP on Monday 3rd March 06:48

[bluesatin]

This is from the rules of posting,

That specifically names companies in relation to accusations of malpractice, fraud or other criminal or civil offences.

To me we have seen a naming of a company and an accusation on the BHP figures! Just my thoughts

[LuckyP]

Can any engine build types tell me whay you'd expect to see from a engine on the rollers as opposed to on the bench? I'm coming from the CHP 557 that I have on my A/S with flowing pipes, no drain (alt/aircon) compared to the Surrey Rolling Roads 408.5HP at the wheels and est 497.6HP at the fly.

How does this compare in % 'loss' terms to other engine builders?

[LuckyP]

Shirley I can't be the only one with a bench dyno sheet in one hand and rolling road sheet in the other?

Pete

[Stig]

crafty said:

Stig said:

I have mentioned off-line the risks of letigious comments on here, yet certain posters seem determined to

ENOUGH of the scaremongering / semi-threats. All I have done is post information that I have found. Your own build diary is what started me thinking about this in the first place as your own dyno chart is in fact the most mysterious of them all.

If you notice, I have asked in my thread whether the CF figure in the charts is a correction factor or otherwise. I have suggested that if it is, then one should take that into account when comparing BHP to price figures. I have suggested that one should make a logical choice based on facts and should really be making a decision based on spec and reputation rather than Dyno figures.

There's nothing litigious in that, please lay off with the private and now public comments that "certain people" are making "letigious" comments, it is not helpful or meaningful or true..... Its not even technically correct, nor is is spelled correctly. "litigious" means someone that likes taking court action... so the comments can never be "litigious", someone that took action against comments would be litigious.

If a car magazine does some road tests and compares manufacturer's stated figures, and gives an opinion, is that libel? Are the discussion GTM vs GTR libelous?... no.... so lay off with the scaremongering and the comments about me breaking the law.

I would say that ALMOST EVERY person that buys an Ultima comes here for information, and EVERYONE that buys an Ultima goes through the decision making process on buying an engine.

Therefore all this type of scaremongering does is suffocate conversation on a topic that is perhaps the most important for anyone buying an Ultima.

Ultima do not sell engines, they merely recommend a company, but owners are free to chose. You may notice that every other forum has discussion about various engine options or aftermarket options.... why cant we have it here.

This is a public forum, its not owned by Ultima nor AS, in fact they almost never contribute here... this is a discussion about information that is available in the market, so you can leave out the "stern warnings" especially public ones, and the comments to the effect that I am breaking the law.

I cant see that the discussion of this topic breaks any laws or forum rules. Despite your fear of discussion over this topic, it seems to be a hot one that people want to discuss.

Edited by crafty on Monday 3rd March 05:39

Grant - I'm not scaremongering nor is it a semi-threat, it's a fact of posting stuff on a public forum.

The topic is open and you're free to post.

As I said, carry on...

[Paul.B]

LuckyP said:

Shirley I can't be the only one with a bench dyno sheet in one hand and rolling road sheet in the other?

Pete

NO! But probably the only one on here this early who cares?



O/T - Thanks for the lift over the weekend mate. I here you managed to grab that item of ebay yesterday morning too. Good luck with the fitting.

Paul.B

[Scuffers]

LuckyP said:

Can any engine build types tell me whay you'd expect to see from a engine on the rollers as opposed to on the bench? I'm coming from the CHP 557 that I have on my A/S with flowing pipes, no drain (alt/aircon) compared to the Surrey Rolling Roads 408.5HP at the wheels and est 497.6HP at the fly.

How does this compare in % 'loss' terms to other engine builders?

LuckyP said:

Shirley I can't be the only one with a bench dyno sheet in one hand and rolling road sheet in the other?

Pete

Probably not, buy that's not really the answer, bench dyno's are just as prone to calibration issues as rollers (when was the last time you ever saw somebody calibrating one?)

Problem for the car owners here is that you really only have roller figures to go on, and that's not good, whist they can give a reasonable figure on *most* stuff, once you are over the 2-300Bhp mark, the scope for error is huge, as I am sure people here know, just getting the tyres to grip the roller(s) is a nightmare.

the only real solution to this is a hub-dyno, ala. Rototest/Dynapack etc, as these bolt direct to the hub-flanges, you have no grip/tyres looses issues (and you also don't have to be scared of your car breaking loose!).

All that said, your still at the mercy of the opperators ability to calibrate and properly correct the answers, it does seem to be an industry desease to over-inflate dyno results.

PS. quoting 0-100-0 times is no indication of BHP per say, that's more about power delivery/tyres/gears/driver. That said, in-gear acceleration times, a proper set of scales and a decent data-logger can get pretty close to a sensible answer.

[crafty]

LuckyP said:

Don't look now Crafty, but there appears to be a REAL PUNTER, with REAL MONEY talking REAL SENSE about why he values a Factory spec (and build) car over one of our own number's, over on the Can-Am thread

If you are quick, you might be able to convert him to the ways of the non-approved. "look in to my eyes, not around the eyes.........."

I knew that was coming.... however that's one guy, and for his own reasons he has made that choice.... that's fine... but if we were all that guy we'd all be driving factory built cars, but its a small minority that do.

Edited by crafty on Monday 3rd March 10:33

[shithotfast]

here is a thought... along the lines of PaulB's.....
My car has a boring SBC from Real Steel (who used to supply the Ultima engines in the old days) So it only has 355bhp, BUT in 10 years all I do is put oil in it. NEVER been a problem because of course its not a stressed engine.

So, if you were buying an Ultima (or any other car) which would you choose?

a) A 355bhp engine car which is still quite nippy AND EVERY time you use it the engine remains on one piece and cost £30 a year to maintain.

OR

b) A 9,699 BHP Ultima which is very very nippy but unfortunately needs a new engine/rebuild/tweaks every 100 miles and a couple of grand to keep the engine going every couple of months so you keep missing events/driving it etc.?

I chose option a).

[LuckyP]

crafty said:

LuckyP said:

Don't look now Crafty, but there appears to be a REAL PUNTER, with REAL MONEY talking REAL SENSE about why he values a Factory spec (and build) car over one of our own number's, over on the Can-Am thread

If you are quick, you might be able to convert him to the ways of the non-approved. "look in to my eyes, not around the eyes.........."

I knew that was coming.... however that's one guy, and for his own reasons he has made that choice.... that's fine... but if we were all that guy we'd all be driving factory built cars, but its a small minority that do.

Edited by crafty on Monday 3rd March 10:33

Can we advance the one to two? The only two prospect on here who are in the position to part with their money and if they do, will set the market value for these A/S engined Ultimas.

[crafty]

sorry lucky, this is the thread about AS the myth that an AS engine is "better" or easier to service or maintain than another manufacturer... and with a side note on comparing specs and dyno numbers.. The OTHER thread is for discussing the differences in values... I'm not allowed to talk about dyno numbers over there - and you're not allowed to talk about values over here... so there!

[LuckyP]

Self policing threads!! I like!

I'm a bit bored with it now, just wanna get the beastie back on the road!!

Out.

Pete

[k wright]

I have an American Speed 377 and bought from them because I was promised that they knew what the requirements were for an oil pan in this chassis. This was FAR from being the case, otherwise the motor was great. I have no idea how much power it has other than too much.

At the time my car was made Jeff Schwartz did not own a shop that sold LS7 motors. Had he been there is no doubt that my car would have one. It is my opinion that Jeff should be the official engine supplier for Ultima. He has done more to advance this car than anyone else except the factory:

LS headers
LS turbo packages
LS engine computers and tuning
LS installation kits
LS motors at very reasonable prices

Upgrades for:

axles
brakes
wheels

Massive media exposure for the marque in the USA. I'm not sure how many of these cars Jeff has "sold" to people that have seen his car on the Power Tour or other events but I'm sure that it is a substantial number.

Ken

[LuckyP]

fastco said:

actuary said:

Perhaps a simple drag race (0 to 150 say) between similarly powered cars (as quoted by engine supplier) would settle this once and for all ? How about fighting torque in August ? A mini Ultima shoot out !!

Tony

Hello.....what a great idea Tony...count us in......I'm sure Wilder will be along shortly with some idea's on this.


My .9 pence/2cents
The track is where fact is completly seperated from fiction
and the backs of dyno sheets are used to post notes @ will call booths and for keep'n score...ha

Cheers! Dr,Dee

I couldn't agree more.

American Speed rocks!!!! Hey Dr?

[Wilder]

LuckyP said:

fastco said:

actuary said:

Perhaps a simple drag race (0 to 150 say) between similarly powered cars (as quoted by engine supplier) would settle this once and for all ? How about fighting torque in August ? A mini Ultima shoot out !!

Tony

Hello.....what a great idea Tony...count us in......I'm sure Wilder will be along shortly with some idea's on this.


My .9 pence/2cents
The track is where fact is completly seperated from fiction
and the backs of dyno sheets are used to post notes @ will call booths and for keep'n score...ha

Cheers! Dr,Dee

I couldn't agree more.

American Speed rocks!!!! Hey Dr?

With respect Peter, you know the problem my car had on the day -we had a chip in there running 500 rpm less than peak power - a guy who was driving it who had never ever done a racing start and started in 3rd gear twice, bogged down on the line once, and didnt realise when to go because the green light didnt come on on his last run with you -and simply set off, like a normal road start. Most of all 30 degrees timing when it should have been set to 38 degrees, and therefore at least 60 - 80 bhp down on what it should have been.We had NO time to set it up and it went in as it came out of the crate.
Add all those factors together, and the fact that you won by 0.02 sec, I really dont think a dig at Dr Dee is in order as personally I think we know what the result should have been.

Edited by Wilder on Wednesday 13th August 12:07

[deadscoob]

The result was the car that performed best on the day, won/got the best times.

Always lots of "could'ves/should'ves", next time yours should be running right and you may have the chance to settle the score.

Petes time has shown a good benchmark for a true 550hp car now.

[bluesatin]

Looking at the pictures of the two Ultima and Pete's car had the main rear wing- this makes a massive difference in drag and top speed.