The American Speed Myth

[srreck]

IMO they are a little bit overpriced. The american V8's have no secrets at all and the only thing that could make the difference is the quality of the internals. What I can see is the American Speed internals are not from other world.......Then...why the overprice ? May be the Ultima's world speed/acc. records????

Edited by srreck on Wednesday 13th August 14:09

[Wilder]

deadscoob said:

The result was the car that performed best on the day, won/got the best times.

Always lots of "could'ves/should'ves", next time yours should be running right and you may have the chance to settle the score.

Petes time has shown a good benchmark for a true 550hp car now.

bluesatin said:

Looking at the pictures of the two Ultima and Pete's car had the main rear wing- this makes a massive difference in drag and top speed.

I had better clarify this post. The reason for putting an explanation, is that without one people would naturally assume it was simply one Ultima racing another. -and on paper yes it was.
However, in Dr Dees defence, the engine was put into the car saturday 9th at 2 am. and because we had obligations to get the car to the venue, we had no time at all to do any settings checks whatsoever (other than safety checks - bolts etc).
Now without the reasons I stated for our very poor performance on the day, people could and would assume from that, the AS engined car was better. I am simply putting the reasons why we were so slow on the day -nothing more.
Peter drove his car well, Neil by his own admission - dreadful, but thats how it goes.. We we not prepared and could have done nothing more as customs only cleared the engine Tuesday night, but thats not Dr Dees fault and the car (as of last night) is now significantly quicker than it was as we have advanced the timing, but as a post script to that, the Dr informs me that for racing it should be set at 41 degrees, which was 11 degrees less than it was.
We ran the old tanks of 95 octane unleaded (7 months old), as we didnt even have time to flush them.
I know the guys did a great job in putting this car together, but rushing an Ultima is not recommended - time simply could not be helped and we could do no more.
As for the rear wing, it will have of course a bearing on the overall speed, but I would gladly trade that handicap against the issues we had.
The bottom line is dont judge the Fastco engine from that day, because its in no way an accurate reflection of what it really can do.

Edited by Wilder on Wednesday 13th August 15:32

[GTWayne]

Wilder said:

The bottom line is dont judge AS vs the FAstco engine from that, because that was in no way an accurate reflection of what it really can do.

And even then surely it would only be a fair comparison if both motors were quoted as making more similar power outputs, never mind the myriad of custom permutations that may or may not exist between the two competitors rides?
It seems to me that a combination of impatience and naivety befell Wilder on that fateful day but onward and upward is the way and I am sure this car will show it's potential in time

Oh yes, I would just like to say ' Well done LuckyP '

[LuckyP]

Wilder said:

LuckyP said:

fastco said:

The track is where fact is completly seperated from fiction

I couldn't agree more.

American Speed rocks!!!! Hey Dr?

....I really dont think a dig at Dr Dee is in order as personally I think we know what the result should have been.

Mate, don't blame me. I just picked up the gauntlet - like any good AS customer would do.

Wish I has another 100hp though

[LuckyP]

Wilder said:

The bottom line is dont judge the Fastco engine from that day, because its in no way an accurate reflection of what it really can do.

I don't doubt that JK. Don't think anyone does either. But when have the PH massive ever let common sense get in the way of a good wind up? He-he!!

[Wilder]

Never mind that -wheres my disc!!
(did you get Daffyds address btw Pete)?

Edited by Wilder on Wednesday 13th August 17:43

[ultimad]

LuckyP said:

Wilder said:

LuckyP said:

fastco said:

The track is where fact is completly seperated from fiction

I couldn't agree more.

American Speed rocks!!!! Hey Dr?

....I really dont think a dig at Dr Dee is in order as personally I think we know what the result should have been.

Mate, don't blame me. I just picked up the gauntlet - like any good AS customer would do.

Wish I has another 100hp though

Pete,

Do you know what ballpark BHP ('American' so I can compare with my engine) your car is putting out these days ? And what was your final gear ratio for the run ? I've lost track of what you've had done/improved as part of your rebuild, so would you mind enlightening those of us not in the know ?

Cheers,

Andy

[LuckyP]

Wilder said:

Never mind that -wheres my disc!!
(did you get Daffyds address btw Pete)?

Yes Jonathan, got the address. I'll see if it fits to a disc tonight.

Cheers

Pete

[GTWayne]

ultimad said:

Pete,

Do you know what ballpark BHP ('American' so I can compare with my engine) your car is putting out these days ? And what was your final gear ratio for the run ? I've lost track of what you've had done/improved as part of your rebuild, so would you mind enlightening those of us not in the know ?

Cheers,

Andy

You may have to wait until tomorrow for an answer on that one Andy as Clive Dun will more than likely be in doors by now with a mug of Coco on the mantle piece and a blanket across his legs and he is the only one that may have a clue about P's engine specs

[Wilder]

TX Pete

[LuckyP]

ultimad said:

Do you know what ballpark BHP ('American' so I can compare with my engine) your car is putting out these days ? And what was your final gear ratio for the run ? I've lost track of what you've had done/improved as part of your rebuild, so would you mind enlightening those of us not in the know ?

Cheers,

Andy

Gail reckons 617CHP. Up from the original 557CHP.

The gears are the regular G50 03 ratios, totally suited to fast road and track. Downside is a 3000rpm 75mph cruise and a realistic Vmax (without engine over rev) of 172mph.

Mods are the dry sump, the headers now ported to the heads, new valve gear, pistons, custom cam.

Gail selected parts specifically for the work that the car does - so a little more heavy duty than lightweight I believe.

HTH

[eliot]

Wilder said:

the Dr informs me that for racing it should be set at 41 degrees, which was 11 degrees less than it was.

41 degrees seems keen for a SBC, 36 is the generally accepted figure. And I wouldn't get too hung up on advance values - I can swap my ignition maps at a flick of a switch, which drops around 5' degrees for std unleaded fuel - the engine note changes at WOT, but it doesn't feel like it looses much power.

Edited by eliot on Wednesday 13th August 23:21

[Wilder]

Difficult to say exactly why , but this is a totally custom job, and I think the cam plays a big part in the settings - It can go up to as much as 44 I believe ( on higher octane/race fuel). The cam is street usable but pretty high lift/duration as its mainly for track work. Set at 30 degrees was no better than my old engine (around 550 bhp) but turning it to 38 we certainly found where those ponies had been hiding.

[GTRCLIVE]

[quote=LuckyP

The gears are the regular G50 03 ratios, totally suited to fast road and track. Downside is a 3000rpm 75mph cruise and a realistic Vmax (without engine over rev) of 172mph.

HTH
[/quote]

Sorry but after owning and driving a few cars, I really think anyone that tells you a Top gear with 25mph/1000rpm is good for anything other than a Lower powered Porker motor is talking out of the wrong end.... These 500bhp+ Chevy engines have so much torque that they need taller gearing to get the best from the engine. Every New Vette / Zonda / Konigzegy / Ascari, and the list goes on, look at what gearing they have, and tell me there gears must be to tall for (Fast Road and Track use)...

I Get the feeling that some one's telling you what you want to here, while trying to sell what they can make money on.... Am I wrong ?? or am I just being Cynical..

Ask Wayne if he thinks his car would be better with lower gearing....

[GTRCLIVE]

Ps Lucky I'm not getting at you me old mate.... I just know that buzzing a SBC doesn't really get you anywhere faster, with less weight than a Porsche, more power/Torque and a lower rev limit really means you need taller gears... IMHO

Gearboxes can be as expensive as Engines, to get one suited to the Engine, HP and Car weight etc.... but you get the feeling that will never sell cars So basically lets not mention it, as to let people know that 2.5K quid gearbox (Which most first time builders thinks is expensive) is really not quite right for the car will only put people off buying.... To say you really need a GT2 Box and that's going to set you back 5K, would scare allot of people and maybe push there Budget GTR past there Limit...

Sorry Rant over.....

[LuckyP]

I take it you've tried and didn't get on with std G50 03 ratios in a 550bhp Ultima then?

If anything, for track, I'd have them shorter.

[LuckyP]

Are you making an asumption that I want the gears for a high top speed?

You have to leave all that top speed nonsence to the Koeneg, Corvette, Ascari crowd, who designers have the unenviable of having to design in a top speed for marketing purposes when it's useless on track.

You're not one of those caught up in that are you?

Clive, I do listen to people, I go and try, and then I change if not right. For my use (that's going up the gears as fast as possible to a max of 165 or so), the G50 03, with it's 25mph/1000rpm gear, is near enough perfect.

This by trial and error - not by smoke blowing.

But thanks anyway.

[ultimad]

LuckyP said:

ultimad said:

Do you know what ballpark BHP ('American' so I can compare with my engine) your car is putting out these days ? And what was your final gear ratio for the run ? I've lost track of what you've had done/improved as part of your rebuild, so would you mind enlightening those of us not in the know ?

Cheers,

Andy

Gail reckons 617CHP. Up from the original 557CHP.

The gears are the regular G50 03 ratios, totally suited to fast road and track. Downside is a 3000rpm 75mph cruise and a realistic Vmax (without engine over rev) of 172mph.

Mods are the dry sump, the headers now ported to the heads, new valve gear, pistons, custom cam.

Gail selected parts specifically for the work that the car does - so a little more heavy duty than lightweight I believe.

HTH

Yes useful info, thanks. I'm just curious, but do you happen to have any 1/4 mile, 0-100 type 'before' and 'after' type records worth mentioning (i.e. something isolating the comparison to just the engine) ? And, in your opinion/experiences, what minimum CHP / final ratio combo do you think would be required for an Ultima to break 200mph on a mile run ?

[LuckyP]

No meaningfull comparisons really. I have a vid of a Vmax at Honnington with the std gears but it was a rolling start, would be interesting to measure the time between gear shifts. It certainly felt more brutal with the new engine.

I'll post the FT08 vid soon.

IMHO If I was briefed to build a car to crack 200 in a mile. It would have to have at least 700 real BHP and a box with a 7000rpm, 210mph speed (see wayne's car for box details!!)

For Vmax over 1.6 mile etc I think 600bhp (at least 650CHP) and the right box should do it.

HTH

[Scotty-Boy]

As someone who is mid-build, would I pay the premium for an AS engine? In a word... NO!

There are plenty of respected SBC builders here in the UK. It may cost a little more to buy locally (then again, it may not after shipping and taxes are thrown in), but I would prefer knowing that I could take the engine back to the guy who built it myself and discuss things face to face with him.

I also prefer to support UK businesses whenever possible. It benefits us all in the long term.

I'm really surprised that the factory haven't opened their own 'engine workshop' and kept everything in house. If they hired the right people, then they would surely make money in the supply and service of SBC's.