The American Speed Myth
Discussion
Scotty-Boy said:
As someone who is mid-build, would I pay the premium for an AS engine? In a word... NO!
And the flip side of the coin, from someone who is on there second Ultima, would I pay a premium for an AS engine? In a word.....YES YES YES (in a harry met sally kind of voice)In my first ultima I had two supposedly respectable engine builders do my engines and I had them re build 7 times in total. In the end I got my mate to build it, then it never missed a beat.
The ultima I just bought has a 6 yr old engine and it seems brilliant. Its early days but already seems more reliabe and drivable.
John
Scotty-Boy said:
As someone who is mid-build, would I pay the premium for an AS engine? In a word... NO!
There are plenty of respected SBC builders here in the UK. It may cost a little more to buy locally (then again, it may not after shipping and taxes are thrown in), but I would prefer knowing that I could take the engine back to the guy who built it myself and discuss things face to face with him.
I also prefer to support UK businesses whenever possible. It benefits us all in the long term.
I'm really surprised that the factory haven't opened their own 'engine workshop' and kept everything in house. If they hired the right people, then they would surely make money in the supply and service of SBC's.
well put!!! i used a local engine builder and he is awesome far superior to the crap i received from the states!There are plenty of respected SBC builders here in the UK. It may cost a little more to buy locally (then again, it may not after shipping and taxes are thrown in), but I would prefer knowing that I could take the engine back to the guy who built it myself and discuss things face to face with him.
I also prefer to support UK businesses whenever possible. It benefits us all in the long term.
I'm really surprised that the factory haven't opened their own 'engine workshop' and kept everything in house. If they hired the right people, then they would surely make money in the supply and service of SBC's.
So Far have driven a 930 4 speed 470bhp Can-Am, a G50/52 5 Speed 450bhp GTR, a G50/20 with 510bhp GTR, had a G50/20 6 Speed 400bhp GTR and last but not lest The GTW which I still think has the best gearing, ok Wayne had the most HP I ever drove but that car is good to go no matter what speed your going. The G50/52 was good for the lower HP engine but and much better than My 6 speed. My G50/20 was about 25mph/1000rpm in 5th gear, it seems as if your going fast and all the gear changing felt involving but in the end I'm convinced that longer gears would still be quicker.... and lets face it these cars were never built for Mallory Park... Silverstone and Le Mans is more it's natural home.
But what the hell as the New Caddy advert says, "When you turn your engine on does your car return the favour..."
I Surpose Enjoy what ever you have as there's always going to be some one faster.... maybe the GTW2....
But what the hell as the New Caddy advert says, "When you turn your engine on does your car return the favour..."
I Surpose Enjoy what ever you have as there's always going to be some one faster.... maybe the GTW2....
GTRCLIVE said:
So Far have driven a 930 4 speed 470bhp Can-Am, a G50/52 5 Speed 450bhp GTR, a G50/20 with 510bhp GTR, had a G50/20 6 Speed 400bhp GTR and last but not lest The GTW which I still think has the best gearing, ok Wayne had the most HP I ever drove but that car is good to go no matter what speed your going. The G50/52 was good for the lower HP engine but and much better than My 6 speed. My G50/20 was about 25mph/1000rpm in 5th gear, it seems as if your going fast and all the gear changing felt involving but in the end I'm convinced that longer gears would still be quicker.... and lets face it these cars were never built for Mallory Park... Silverstone and Le Mans is more it's natural home.
But what the hell as the New Caddy advert says, "When you turn your engine on does your car return the favour..."
I Surpose Enjoy what ever you have as there's always going to be some one faster.... maybe the GTW2....
That's some box experience!But what the hell as the New Caddy advert says, "When you turn your engine on does your car return the favour..."
I Surpose Enjoy what ever you have as there's always going to be some one faster.... maybe the GTW2....
Maybe I'm a numpty, but I fail to see for the same powered engine, and a car that like mine that has a flat torque from 4000 and peak power climbing hard to 6800 (cuts the flat torque at 5500), why I wouldn't get quicker acceleration with a shorter ratioed (G50 03) box. Don't get me wrong. If high speed is the goal, then you just have to get better ratio for Vmax (as shown with the vid just posted). But I stand by my experience of the G50 03 for fast road and track - it's perfect.
(I'll just go deaf and skint whilst cruising to and from events!!)
(How is the GTW2 coming along?)
Edited by LuckyP on Friday 15th August 09:03
^ Seems to me that you two are singing from different song sheets. In the y e l l o w corner, we have GTRClive, and in the BLACK corner we have LuckyP 
Now I do not meen to imply by using this analogy that you two are taking part in a fight but am merely pointing out that your differing viewpoints seem to be directed towards your individual requirements with regards to gearing using various alternative G50 transaxles.
y e l l o w = Road biased
BLACK = Track biased
We are all well aware of the fact that the better a car is on the road, the less likely it will be of performing well on track and vice-versa.
The standard gearing of a G50 03 was no where near optimal for my needs in the GTW as it will be used predominantly as a road car. If and when things pan out I will relay my thoughts on my chosen gearset and its ability on track, but that was never my main priority. P has gotten in to the track day scene big style with his car and I do not know of anyone recently who has had more experience than he. GTRClive also has a wealth of experience and a plethora of professional contacts that are experts in this field, so even though he is a bit of a funny shape, his opinions do carry weight ( no pun intended
).
There is no definitive right or wrong here, but it does illustrate how choosing the correctly geared transaxle can pay dividends pertaining to one predominant field of use.
Now I do not meen to imply by using this analogy that you two are taking part in a fight but am merely pointing out that your differing viewpoints seem to be directed towards your individual requirements with regards to gearing using various alternative G50 transaxles.
y e l l o w = Road biased
BLACK = Track biased
We are all well aware of the fact that the better a car is on the road, the less likely it will be of performing well on track and vice-versa.
The standard gearing of a G50 03 was no where near optimal for my needs in the GTW as it will be used predominantly as a road car. If and when things pan out I will relay my thoughts on my chosen gearset and its ability on track, but that was never my main priority. P has gotten in to the track day scene big style with his car and I do not know of anyone recently who has had more experience than he. GTRClive also has a wealth of experience and a plethora of professional contacts that are experts in this field, so even though he is a bit of a funny shape, his opinions do carry weight ( no pun intended
).There is no definitive right or wrong here, but it does illustrate how choosing the correctly geared transaxle can pay dividends pertaining to one predominant field of use.
Lucky you seem the Energetic type, if you ever fancy a Skiing holiday then let me know I'm close to some of the best Skiing in Canada, Banff / Lake Louise (Yes they even named the lake after your boss...)
I could show you the state of the GTW2, and if you leave it till next year then I could also let you have a drive it.... Compare both cars...
But maybe waynes right.... (Christ did I just say that
) Horses for courses...
Anyway Offer is Good, have more bedrooms than I can shake a Stick at and car nuts are always welcome... Can even sort out cheap car hire now, have a contact in the right place....
Getting back to the thread.....
I wouldn't have a AS engine if it was free.....
Mr Jeff gets my vote every time.... not forgetting Mr Knight if I was back in the UK of course....
I could show you the state of the GTW2, and if you leave it till next year then I could also let you have a drive it.... Compare both cars...
But maybe waynes right.... (Christ did I just say that
) Horses for courses...Anyway Offer is Good, have more bedrooms than I can shake a Stick at and car nuts are always welcome... Can even sort out cheap car hire now, have a contact in the right place....
Getting back to the thread.....
I wouldn't have a AS engine if it was free.....
Mr Jeff gets my vote every time.... not forgetting Mr Knight if I was back in the UK of course....
GTRCLIVE said:
Lucky you seem the Energetic type, if you ever fancy a Skiing holiday then let me know I'm close to some of the best Skiing in Canada, Banff / Lake Louise (Yes they even named the lake after your boss...)
I could show you the state of the GTW2, and if you leave it till next year then I could also let you have a drive it.... Compare both cars...
But maybe waynes right.... (Christ did I just say that) Horses for courses...
Anyway Offer is Good, have more bedrooms than I can shake a Stick at and car nuts are always welcome... Can even sort out cheap car hire now, have a contact in the right place....
Getting back to the thread.....
I wouldn't have a AS engine if it was free.....
Mr Jeff gets my vote every time.... not forgetting Mr Knight if I was back in the UK of course....
Ooohh, yes please I could show you the state of the GTW2, and if you leave it till next year then I could also let you have a drive it.... Compare both cars...
But maybe waynes right.... (Christ did I just say that
) Horses for courses...Anyway Offer is Good, have more bedrooms than I can shake a Stick at and car nuts are always welcome... Can even sort out cheap car hire now, have a contact in the right place....
Getting back to the thread.....
I wouldn't have a AS engine if it was free.....
Mr Jeff gets my vote every time.... not forgetting Mr Knight if I was back in the UK of course....
winter 2008/9?Boarder and skier from age 3 when my PE teacher mum got trips each year with an all girl convent school!!!
Lucky????
d!GTRCLIVE said:
...I could show you the state of the GTW2...
Surely you mean the GTC?Whilst on the one hand, I am of course flattered that you should wish to use this monica for your 'evolution ' model but on the other, I must protest as there is only one GTW and there will never be another. You are undoubtedly responsible for physically bolting the parts together and more but it is my creation and I made it happen
,Most appreciably,
GTWayne
You cant do a drag race to see the performance of the car matches the power as the gearing and LSD % will make a huge difference... also the surface.
For the record my AS engine was bought as a '500 bhp' engine, was dyno'd on AS dyno at 526bhp with a CF of 7% and redyno'd on Peter Knights dyno at 489bhp a year later.... I was pretty happy overall.
It is interesting though as I have seen CR factors range from the 7% on mine to 15% on others on the same dyno.... not sure thats possible to vary that much?
I stripped mine down and it was certainly OK inside with all the bits you'd expect... it haddnt been blueprinted tho (particularly the heads).
Incidentally I also dyno'd the Ultima headers and the power dropped to 475bhp with a much larger drop in the mid range... so dyno figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt as they are rarelly representative of the in car power, you GTR guys also have to take into account the air con unit.
Also worth noting that overfilling the Porsche box cause its inverted also increases losses and its been esimated by around 5% (not by me)... so those that have a gearbox cooler and pump will have more horses at the wheels.
For the record my AS engine was bought as a '500 bhp' engine, was dyno'd on AS dyno at 526bhp with a CF of 7% and redyno'd on Peter Knights dyno at 489bhp a year later.... I was pretty happy overall.
It is interesting though as I have seen CR factors range from the 7% on mine to 15% on others on the same dyno.... not sure thats possible to vary that much?
I stripped mine down and it was certainly OK inside with all the bits you'd expect... it haddnt been blueprinted tho (particularly the heads).
Incidentally I also dyno'd the Ultima headers and the power dropped to 475bhp with a much larger drop in the mid range... so dyno figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt as they are rarelly representative of the in car power, you GTR guys also have to take into account the air con unit.
Also worth noting that overfilling the Porsche box cause its inverted also increases losses and its been esimated by around 5% (not by me)... so those that have a gearbox cooler and pump will have more horses at the wheels.
I didn't read the whole tread so I may be saying irrelevant stuff or repeating what someone else already said. If your engine builder says the engine makes 640bhp, that's a figure that was measured on an engine dyno. Obviously if you strap your car on a rolling roll and expect to see the same figure you'll be disappointed. There's usually an average of 15% power loss through the drivetrain (those gears aren't easy to turn!) and ancillary stuff attached to the engine. So a engine making 640 bhp will show around 540 at the wheels on a rolling road.
But I don't have an answer for the seemingly big correction factor on AS dyno sheets though. I'll look at my sheet tonight and see what factor was used for my engine.
But I don't have an answer for the seemingly big correction factor on AS dyno sheets though. I'll look at my sheet tonight and see what factor was used for my engine.
I have been reading this thred with interest and thought id pass on some of my experiance to you guys.
I have just rebuilt my SBF engine which like most of you was far from standard that it was intended to be som 70 years ago when designed. My engine was originally 153 hp in 1965 and now produces 300-350. I have had to rebuild it after only 15000 miles due to 1 broken piston and 6 cracked ones which would not have happened if we werent trying to get a bit more horsepower out of it and using ideas only designed for race engines(this time the switch of piston offset to increase horsepower)
The american push rod engine was originally designed in the late 20's and hasnt really changed since then. Its only really after the second world war when GI's came home from the war, that the tunning of these engines started and then manufacturers proced HP motors in their mussele cars that they started to produce 200-300 hp small blocks, These were ''good old yank engines that would go on for ever''
Anyway coming back to the point, it does not matter who builds your engine, me, Jo bloggs or AS , they are not going to last producing 550, 640, 720hp and being thrashed arround a track. Everyone make mistakes me included and components fail, but when you are producing upto 720hp stroking and boreing a 350 SBC they will break down in the end(sooner rather than later!!!!!!!)
I would suggest Ultima have had to recommended a company that they have deplt with which they felt would be good for their customers because most people although they can put together one of their kits can't build an engine themselves.So whether you use AS or Jack Knight or Jo Blogs remember these are tunned race engines built as race engines.If you are going to use them as a road car, it will not be a ''good old yank motor that goes on for ever'' anymore.
i have not had any dealings with Jack Knight or AS so i can not pass on judgement , but i have heard good reports from both companies so the descision will be a personal one. just remember components fail when under load, it doesnt matter who fitted them..
To answer one of the other topics bought up in this thred, when i was involved in drag racing and also worked for one of the major motorcycle manufacturers, we used to dyno alot of engines.We used to find upto a 10% difference in BHP even on a standard engine.... We also found in those days an engine that had been run-in for 100 miles and then thrashed like mad would produce more horsepower than and engine that had been run in properly , but also the thrashed engine when stripped would be more worn as well. There are no 2 engines alike, even if you use the same componenents.
Anyway im off to silverstone now to watch a load of diesel le mans cars and get some ideas for my twin turbo diesel ultima..hahhaha
dom
I have just rebuilt my SBF engine which like most of you was far from standard that it was intended to be som 70 years ago when designed. My engine was originally 153 hp in 1965 and now produces 300-350. I have had to rebuild it after only 15000 miles due to 1 broken piston and 6 cracked ones which would not have happened if we werent trying to get a bit more horsepower out of it and using ideas only designed for race engines(this time the switch of piston offset to increase horsepower)
The american push rod engine was originally designed in the late 20's and hasnt really changed since then. Its only really after the second world war when GI's came home from the war, that the tunning of these engines started and then manufacturers proced HP motors in their mussele cars that they started to produce 200-300 hp small blocks, These were ''good old yank engines that would go on for ever''
Anyway coming back to the point, it does not matter who builds your engine, me, Jo bloggs or AS , they are not going to last producing 550, 640, 720hp and being thrashed arround a track. Everyone make mistakes me included and components fail, but when you are producing upto 720hp stroking and boreing a 350 SBC they will break down in the end(sooner rather than later!!!!!!!)
I would suggest Ultima have had to recommended a company that they have deplt with which they felt would be good for their customers because most people although they can put together one of their kits can't build an engine themselves.So whether you use AS or Jack Knight or Jo Blogs remember these are tunned race engines built as race engines.If you are going to use them as a road car, it will not be a ''good old yank motor that goes on for ever'' anymore.
i have not had any dealings with Jack Knight or AS so i can not pass on judgement , but i have heard good reports from both companies so the descision will be a personal one. just remember components fail when under load, it doesnt matter who fitted them..
To answer one of the other topics bought up in this thred, when i was involved in drag racing and also worked for one of the major motorcycle manufacturers, we used to dyno alot of engines.We used to find upto a 10% difference in BHP even on a standard engine.... We also found in those days an engine that had been run-in for 100 miles and then thrashed like mad would produce more horsepower than and engine that had been run in properly , but also the thrashed engine when stripped would be more worn as well. There are no 2 engines alike, even if you use the same componenents.
Anyway im off to silverstone now to watch a load of diesel le mans cars and get some ideas for my twin turbo diesel ultima..hahhaha
dom
Graham-P said:
GTWayne said:
suntiger1965 said:
...i have not had any dealings with Jack Knight...
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