Sequential Shifter (again)

Sequential Shifter (again)

Author
Discussion

spatz

1,783 posts

185 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
dont you guys have angle grinder and a welder at hand biggrin
When you start cutting the chassis the fun is starting, sort of.

V8Dom

3,546 posts

201 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
pilbeam_mp62 said:
JoulesCanAm said:
I'd also have to say some of the most interesting and relevant things I've learnt recently have been on threads that Grasser has participated and added a lot of valuable opinion. He is out there racing the GTR and as such probably has more real life experience than most, so I'm all ears.

The thread on aerodynamics and diffussers was another one where I learnt a lot, keep the conversation flowing.....
Hey - I don't want to make this into any big thing - and maybe I was a bit strong with my previous comment, but I thought we weren't allowed to advertise in the forum...if we are, that's great, because it's much quicker and easier than the Classifieds , and you can wait for the thread to be relevant to the stuff you are looking to sell, and then BANG ,you whack it right in there smile

I too find his comments interesting and informative - as I said a while ago when there was some blatant advertising, not-too-subtly inserted into a thread, and I remarked on it at the time.

What I said then, and I will repeat it, was that it was a pity he had not found any time to post ONE comment in the almost 4 years he had been a member of the forum BEFORE he started to advertise his services.

Hey - I've got nothing against Grasser - I don't know the guy - but let's just have some clarification about what constitutes advertising shall we ?

Making reference to the fact that you have placed an advertisement in the Classifieds is not advertising IMO - whereas describing something in full detail with explicit pricing information within a thread, surely is (again, IMO)

Is there is one rule for people who are posting "interesting and informative" information, and one rule for the rest ?

Soap Box mode OFF

Moderator - please can you give some guidance ?

Thanks you very much



Regards
I must admit I too nearly wrote something different to my blooming heck you could buy a car for that , as this is a discusion not a for sale forum(stig could add a line above for 'for sale'??)

May i suggest Grasser as alot of us are interested in your advise, rather than answer the question with a '''i have for sale ???????? it might be better to answer we have tried alot of different options regarding this problem while developing our cars and tried X and Y because???? (as we would like to have some input and you are technical in your answers), and then later in the discussion if anyone is interested in going your route you could ask them to contact yourselves by PM...

I feel that the reaction that you are getting is because people would prefer you to be part of the discussion rather than an advert just thrown in our faces, because at the moment it looks like youre looking for any excuse to drop a ''for sale'' board in the conversation everytime you have an input.

Wouldnt you agree??

Dom

Edited by V8Dom on Monday 25th January 18:49

C Lee Farquar

4,066 posts

215 months

Monday 25th January 2010
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GTRCLIVE said:
Just a question and please don't take offence, but I get the feeling it more of a Fashion thing than a Quick gear-change....

The hole point of a Seq Shifting gearbox is to have Dog engagement so it's faster, Seq on Syncro's is kind of missing the point is it not ??

and I bet by the time you have bought a good Porsche gearbox and then the Seq ster you could have bought one of these.....

http://www.eliteracingtransmissions.com/product.ph...
Would it be strong enough? The Hi-torque bit may be in relation to Ford Escort engines.

UltimaCH

3,155 posts

188 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
Can we get back to the technical side of things? How do you manage the clutch operation with a sequential shift system installed on a G50 or G96 box? As they are not dog geared boxes, do you still use the clutch pedal or get some sort of electronic or pneumatic actuation? scratchchin

V8Dom

3,546 posts

201 months

Monday 25th January 2010
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UltimaCH said:
Can we get back to the technical side of things? How do you manage the clutch operation with a sequential shift system installed on a G50 or G96 box? As they are not dog geared boxes, do you still use the clutch pedal or get some sort of electronic or pneumatic actuation? scratchchin
sorry i agree!!

And Dave how much roughly was the kit to fit to your car and how easy was it to fit??

Dom

CanAm Dave

939 posts

223 months

Tuesday 26th January 2010
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GTRCLIVE said:
CanAm Dave said:
V8Dom said:
Hasnt canam Dave fitted a sequential shifter onto his car???

Dom
He has indeed!

This is the system I have fitted to my car.

http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/277:363:sqs-seque...

It is fully fitted and has been tested on the drive but due to lack of MOT and twelve points on my licence I have yet to test it on the road.

I will have the MOT done in March and begin the road testing then.

As for the transmission that Clive has mentioned by Elite it will not work with a SBC or LS in an Ultima chassis. It may fit in your chassis Clive but I was going down that route until I did all the measurements and realised it would not fit. It has been used with the Audi V8 by Tecnocars.

The sequential changer listed by Oakley is the same as mine and is made by SQS racing.

Dave
Hi Dave, why would it not fit ?? interested to know....
Hi Clive

The reason for it not fitting is the driveshaft output position from the transmission. It comes out too far back as the measurement from the centre of the driveshafts to the face of the transmission (point at which the input shaft enters the box) is much greater than that of any porsche box. You can't postion the engine far enough forward to resolve this. This is not a problem with and Audi V8 as the engine is much shorter.

Hi Daniel

I have the sequential shift fitted to my G96/50 turbo box. Yes you still have to operate the clutch manually. I have a cable operated left hand shift(Right hand drive car) and with a passenger in there is not much elbow room, so just being able to shift by pulling back or pushing forward is a bonus. The biggest bonus means you can't miss a gear change or go into the wrong gear.

Hi Dom

I paid around 2,500 Euros when I bought my kit and was very straight forward to fit. The only issue is to puchase a single cable of the correct length as this kit is designed for a porsche. I bought my cable from Venhill for about £60. I have shifted the handbrake lever slightly to one side due to the central exit of the single gear change cable. On the Turbo box one of the gear levers needs to be modified (cut and welded) but info on that comes in the kit. For the GT2 or GT3 box no modification of the lever is required. This kit can also be fitted to the G96/00 box.

Regards Dave

Strike1

97 posts

189 months

Tuesday 26th January 2010
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Hi Dave

All the way from Africa here...........

Great news , i have a G96/88 box so expect all's ok as well. Whats the chances of some instalaton pictures on your car boss...bouncebowyes

CanAm Dave

939 posts

223 months

Tuesday 26th January 2010
quotequote all
Strike1 said:
Hi Dave

All the way from Africa here...........

Great news , i have a G96/88 box so expect all's ok as well. Whats the chances of some instalaton pictures on your car boss...bouncebowyes
No problem, I have some pics on my pc at home. I will try and post some tomorrow!

Regards Dave

GTRCLIVE

4,186 posts

282 months

Tuesday 26th January 2010
quotequote all
Thanks Dave, can you remember exactly how much further back it was.... all the drawings I have for the Box have no bellhousing.

CanAm Dave

939 posts

223 months

Tuesday 26th January 2010
quotequote all
GTRCLIVE said:
Thanks Dave, can you remember exactly how much further back it was.... all the drawings I have for the Box have no bellhousing.
Hi Clive

You can see the measurement on the TXL300 is 165mm. IIRC on the porsche it's about 120mm. So it puts the output of the driveshafts back about 45mm. This was going to cause issues with one of the diagonals on the chassis. I can't be more exact without doing the measurement on a porsche box. Maybe someone could measure it for you. For me it was too close to call so I went for a G96/50 instead. The guys from Elite were very helpfull but my project had aleady been off the road for long enough.

Regards Dave

grasser

98 posts

218 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
pilbeam_mp62 said:
Hey Grasser

You just don't get it do you ???

I am sick of your blatant advertising on the forum.

Get it over to the Classifieds.

Moderator - when are you going to do something about this guy ???
I am really sorry, that this offer, made some personal problems to you!

I just wanted to help, if someone needs really a working sequential gearbox.


We have already build in and worked with following Gearboxes:

Porsche G96 with sequential Gear Shift adapter (very long shifting ways, and long shifting times)
Hewland Gearbox: Very good, but broke in pieces with 700 HP!

and at the end we come to Holinger. This gearbox was awsome and we where very happy to run this box over 2 seasons without any problems.

And if i offer to sell this box here, please let this be my free way to write this here.
If you are not interessted in this offer,...i am sorry, then please dont read it!

If anyone needs any help with his Ultima, i am really happy to help anybody with our experiences.
Belive me, mp62, there are a lot of things to learn to get a Ultima ready for Endurance racing what we do!
All this things we have learned, helps also a lot in producing our road and race cars.
And so we are very happy to share this information with all Ultima owners!
And we are leraning also a lot out of this forum. There are some guys here with mega good ideas and done stuff!

Greets to all!
Gottfried

pilbeam_mp62

955 posts

200 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
grasser said:
pilbeam_mp62 said:
Hey Grasser

You just don't get it do you ???

I am sick of your blatant advertising on the forum.

Get it over to the Classifieds.

Moderator - when are you going to do something about this guy ???
I am really sorry, that this offer, made some personal problems to you!

I just wanted to help, if someone needs really a working sequential gearbox.


We have already build in and worked with following Gearboxes:

Porsche G96 with sequential Gear Shift adapter (very long shifting ways, and long shifting times)
Hewland Gearbox: Very good, but broke in pieces with 700 HP!

and at the end we come to Holinger. This gearbox was awsome and we where very happy to run this box over 2 seasons without any problems.

And if i offer to sell this box here, please let this be my free way to write this here.
If you are not interessted in this offer,...i am sorry, then please dont read it!

If anyone needs any help with his Ultima, i am really happy to help anybody with our experiences.
Belive me, mp62, there are a lot of things to learn to get a Ultima ready for Endurance racing what we do!
All this things we have learned, helps also a lot in producing our road and race cars.
And so we are very happy to share this information with all Ultima owners!
And we are leraning also a lot out of this forum. There are some guys here with mega good ideas and done stuff!

Greets to all!
Gottfried
We all appreciate your input Grasser.

I apologise if my comments were a little strong.

Please continue to post your information and experiences with the Ultima.

Regards

V8Dom

3,546 posts

201 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
well done Gottfried... nicely put..

I see you have played with sequential shifters as well, and as most of us are road use cars i would be interested to know the pros and cons with these shifters.

Because most of us cant afford dedicated gearboxes its a subject Im interested in as the right hand gearchange although is great and very racer feel can lead to jumping from 2nd to 5th when going up the box due to its setup.Was your setup slow due to a slow actuator which would now be quicker due to development and what do you call slow, after all a racerbox and roadbox have different quickness requirements, you are after that extra 1/10 of a second..

Dom

UltimaCH

3,155 posts

188 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
If we are talking about Holinger boxes, it seems they are very race oriented and the conversion for Porsche boxes end up being dog sequential changes. For the road, I can live with a sequential gear shift system and actuating the clutch by foot. You can also live with race type clutches (on/off type) once you get the feel how to engage the clutch. Works smoothly even in traffic!

http://www.holinger.com.au/product_page.php?comman...
edited to add the link

Edited by UltimaCH on Wednesday 27th January 15:33

harry b

329 posts

173 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
It's a bit early to post, but I'm currently working on one. Have the first tests done on some simple base, and I'm quite pleased with the result.
It's a simple solution which only replaces the H shifting pattern towards a front backward moving one, so avoiding wrong shifts.
Still need to operate the clutch like normal, works on a motorcycle gearbox principle.
Aiming lowbudget pricing since it ain'tmy business just my hobby.

picture of different milled selectorwheels


CAD picture of principle for G50 gearbox



crafty

Original Poster:

2,291 posts

236 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
GENIOUS!

I love it!

One thing to note with the G50 is that it is very sensitive to the twisting motion required to go across the gate (left/right)

In the standard setup, if the rods are not aligned, they can tend to slightly twist when being pushed forwards>backwards, which makes the H uneven and shifting difficult.

You have 2 arms attached to the selector shaft on the trans, one for in/out, and one for left/right....(the left right one being the one with the tie rod) Im not sure if you pinned the left/right to the shaft, or used a key. If you pinned it, there is a possibility that you may get a very small force on the "tied rod" as the in/out lever moves the shaft in/out, which might affect the shifting.

Perhaps look at keying this connection so that the in/out movement is completely isolated from the left/right (i.e. so that the left/right arms stays still and the shaft moves in/out of the end of the arm)

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 27th January 23:22

V8Dom

3,546 posts

201 months

Wednesday 27th January 2010
quotequote all
crafty said:
GENIOUS!

I love it!
i agree, as being an x motorcycle nut I too felt the motorcycle system was a good idea that could be adopted to cars but did not have the equipment to do it.....keep us posted

Dom

harry b

329 posts

173 months

Thursday 28th January 2010
quotequote all
crafty said:
GENIOUS!

I love it!

One thing to note with the G50 is that it is very sensitive to the twisting motion required to go across the gate (left/right)

In the standard setup, if the rods are not aligned, they can tend to slightly twist when being pushed forwards>backwards, which makes the H uneven and shifting difficult.

You have 2 arms attached to the selector shaft on the trans, one for in/out, and one for left/right....(the left right one being the one with the tie rod) Im not sure if you pinned the left/right to the shaft, or used a key. If you pinned it, there is a possibility that you may get a very small force on the "tied rod" as the in/out lever moves the shaft in/out, which might affect the shifting.

Perhaps look at keying this connection so that the in/out movement is completely isolated from the left/right (i.e. so that the left/right arms stays still and the shaft moves in/out of the end of the arm)

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 27th January 23:22
Hi Crafty,
In this stage it isn't detailed yet, but it will most definitively not be pinned. Because of the sliding function the position on the actuating arm will change slightly.
This is the most difficult issue to get around. every sliding motion will cause a minimal rotating effect too. I'm planning to make a device where the twistingarm length can be adjusted to extend or shorten movement. The movement between 1-2 and 3-4 and 5 are equal, the movement between R and 1-2 is double. shifting R-1-3-5 and 2-4 are equal.

Strike1

97 posts

189 months

Thursday 28th January 2010
quotequote all
Calling Davewhistle

Sorry to be a rash buddy , just a reminder about pic's of your installation.


Regards

Strike1

grasser

98 posts

218 months

Wednesday 3rd February 2010
quotequote all
V8Dom said:
well done Gottfried... nicely put..

I see you have played with sequential shifters as well, and as most of us are road use cars i would be interested to know the pros and cons with these shifters.

Because most of us cant afford dedicated gearboxes its a subject Im interested in as the right hand gearchange although is great and very racer feel can lead to jumping from 2nd to 5th when going up the box due to its setup.Was your setup slow due to a slow actuator which would now be quicker due to development and what do you call slow, after all a racerbox and roadbox have different quickness requirements, you are after that extra 1/10 of a second..

Dom
thanks!

Jon Olsson bought a sequential box from us. He is the only one who had it tried on the road with the Holinger box.
It was really good, but a little to loud, as there are straight gears in.

2nd thing will be that you have on all racing gearboxes a very long 1st gear.....this is not easy to bring the car on speed, without stalling the engine....

But: Its a nice feature: when you only go on the road its enough to have a g96 with the porsche sequential shift system see here:

http://www.albertweb.de/fahrzeugkatalog/996/getrie...


this is nice, not fast shifting, but a nice cheap option!
The Holinger box is more for Race freaks!