More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
custodian said:
I recently upgraded from Pass Labs x1000 mono blocks to Halcro DM88 mono blocks. Both are improved by a decent power conditioner.
"Improved" suggests a different sound. Can you actually use an oscilloscope (or whatever) to see the difference in sound? custodian said:
Icon Audio make a solid basic valve amp which I know well. If you believe it would be an improvement, you are deaf.
Isn't sound also a personal preference thing? An improvement to you might not be an improvement to others?
Yes, sound is a personal thing.
The Halcros have large PSUs built in, but at the end of the day they appear to be class B transistor amps with a certain about of localised feedback and a correction stage at the back end, which people reckon has an issue with frequency response interactions. I.e. it starts compensating for FR (as would global negative feedback) rather than correcting the signal. It does use FETs for output but these are the least audible transistors as they will just be followers. With an amazingly low THD distortion level (even lower than the Usher R1.5) I suspect quite a bit of feedback.
Whether it's any good or not I'm not sure, just having a decent PSU would boost most cheap transistor B amps into a better sound.
The triode however, especially the directly heated cathode (DHT) variants are still IIRC the most linear amplifying devices known to man and so remains the favourite hifi device - remember feedback only works 'as advertised' on a linear system, the popular usage of it to iron out non-linearities is I think a large reason why many amps fail to satisfy.
Then there is the philosphical question of question of what the amp actually does - many amps try to involve the whole amp in the speaker movements, whereas in general a tube amp allows a speaker to listen to the amp. I run a class A single ended tube amp, the Class A means that the amp is always drawing about the same power, which means the PSU doesn't really matter too much - in a class B 100% of the music current travels around the PSU so it's very important.
I remember trying to tell the difference between expensive power conditioners and nothing at a hi-fi show. The salesman kept telling us the differences which was just as well as neither me or my mate could tell the slightest difference.
At the end of the day however the shocking state of piss poor CD mastering generally has a far bigger effect on the sound, purists worrying about the imaginary nuances would be shocked if they saw the waveforms coming off CDs into their futile-ly expensive CD players and DACs.
And then the biggest effect on the sound? Some people say room acoustics but I reckon not, I think the biggest effect on the sound is the mood you are in
The Halcros have large PSUs built in, but at the end of the day they appear to be class B transistor amps with a certain about of localised feedback and a correction stage at the back end, which people reckon has an issue with frequency response interactions. I.e. it starts compensating for FR (as would global negative feedback) rather than correcting the signal. It does use FETs for output but these are the least audible transistors as they will just be followers. With an amazingly low THD distortion level (even lower than the Usher R1.5) I suspect quite a bit of feedback.
Whether it's any good or not I'm not sure, just having a decent PSU would boost most cheap transistor B amps into a better sound.
The triode however, especially the directly heated cathode (DHT) variants are still IIRC the most linear amplifying devices known to man and so remains the favourite hifi device - remember feedback only works 'as advertised' on a linear system, the popular usage of it to iron out non-linearities is I think a large reason why many amps fail to satisfy.
Then there is the philosphical question of question of what the amp actually does - many amps try to involve the whole amp in the speaker movements, whereas in general a tube amp allows a speaker to listen to the amp. I run a class A single ended tube amp, the Class A means that the amp is always drawing about the same power, which means the PSU doesn't really matter too much - in a class B 100% of the music current travels around the PSU so it's very important.
I remember trying to tell the difference between expensive power conditioners and nothing at a hi-fi show. The salesman kept telling us the differences which was just as well as neither me or my mate could tell the slightest difference.
At the end of the day however the shocking state of piss poor CD mastering generally has a far bigger effect on the sound, purists worrying about the imaginary nuances would be shocked if they saw the waveforms coming off CDs into their futile-ly expensive CD players and DACs.
And then the biggest effect on the sound? Some people say room acoustics but I reckon not, I think the biggest effect on the sound is the mood you are in
The_Burg said:
HiFi is a bit weird, everything pretty much is subjective.
True, but when a friend says "OMG this bit of kit has changed my world" (eg a new transport into a DAC) and you ask him to name this brilliant transport over 20 tracks blindfold and he gets it right half the time...In addition: if you house your Hifi in a flat in London - the biggest upgrade is to move to a proper room.
I have many friends who have an amusing (£20k) amount of Hifi that sounds rubbish compared to my second system (less than £500) because they have to be delicate with the volume.
I have many friends who have an amusing (£20k) amount of Hifi that sounds rubbish compared to my second system (less than £500) because they have to be delicate with the volume.
You'd be pissed to discover your $3,500 Lexicon Bluray player was, in fact a $500 Oppo inside. And I mean LITERALLY inside.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high...
Here's the kicker; the Lexicon is THX-certified and the Oppo is not - because it doesn't meet the standards. So how does that player suddenly meet those 'exacting standards' when it's dropped into a $3,000 case? Someone's lying...
Oh, and a reviewer gets comprehensively 'owned' and still can't admit defeat even in the face of overwhelming proof that there is absolutely NO difference between the two players AT ALL. It's cringe-worthy. Any credibility he ever had as a hi-fi reviewer went out the window in one article.
http://hometheaterreview.com/lexicon-bd-30-univers...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high...
Here's the kicker; the Lexicon is THX-certified and the Oppo is not - because it doesn't meet the standards. So how does that player suddenly meet those 'exacting standards' when it's dropped into a $3,000 case? Someone's lying...
Oh, and a reviewer gets comprehensively 'owned' and still can't admit defeat even in the face of overwhelming proof that there is absolutely NO difference between the two players AT ALL. It's cringe-worthy. Any credibility he ever had as a hi-fi reviewer went out the window in one article.
http://hometheaterreview.com/lexicon-bd-30-univers...
Ken Tarazaka said:
I am sure people will attack this player as a "rebadged" Oppo, so I went out and bought an Oppo BD-83 SE in order to fairly compare the two. First off, there is no comparison between the build quality of the two players. The Oppo is lighter and the buttons have a far less solid feel to them. The Lexicon is a taller, much heftier unit. Black levels were close, but the Lexicon had a more natural contrast and color palette than the Oppo. More importantly, the Lexicon was nearly totally silent when loading discs and changing tracks. Those familiar with the Oppo know it is a rather noisy player when loading discs, switching tracks and scanning, even sometimes for no apparent reason. The drive is in the Oppo is noisy enough to catch my attention during quiet passages in movies, while the Lexicon is inaudible during use at all times.
$3,000 quieter?Edited by Funk on Sunday 6th January 02:32
I'm sorry I'm with Globs here.......
But let me make a more general point about top end HiFi, there seems to be some confusion about the logic of the argument, most improvements can be heard by almost everyone, however most people would not spend £300 on an IC, even though they could hear the change.
We seem to be getting value and difference in sound confused.
Let me use the car analogy, you can remap your engine, change the exhaust and finally change the induction, it will cost you £1200, but actually if you spend £200 on driver training you will go a lt faster !
None of the car changes are 'snake oil' but until you are trained they will make only small differences to you lap times.
Back to Hi Fi - once you have the basics right, solid place to store your boxes, spiked speakers, good source, enough soft furnishings to make the room acoustics good, then you can move on more modest improvements, better InterConnects for example.
I used to use Linn Blacks, great IC, then I heard Linn Silvers, they are just awesome on my system, worth £300 a pop ?
To most people no, to me yes ( plus I picked some up 2nd hand ).
Lambo vs Ferrari ?
Linn vs Naim ?
Lotus vs TVR ?
Vinyl vs FLAC Digital ?
All are great, they are all personal preference, non are 'snake oil' they offer something different above Ford, Vauxhall, Sony and LG.......
But let me make a more general point about top end HiFi, there seems to be some confusion about the logic of the argument, most improvements can be heard by almost everyone, however most people would not spend £300 on an IC, even though they could hear the change.
We seem to be getting value and difference in sound confused.
Let me use the car analogy, you can remap your engine, change the exhaust and finally change the induction, it will cost you £1200, but actually if you spend £200 on driver training you will go a lt faster !
None of the car changes are 'snake oil' but until you are trained they will make only small differences to you lap times.
Back to Hi Fi - once you have the basics right, solid place to store your boxes, spiked speakers, good source, enough soft furnishings to make the room acoustics good, then you can move on more modest improvements, better InterConnects for example.
I used to use Linn Blacks, great IC, then I heard Linn Silvers, they are just awesome on my system, worth £300 a pop ?
To most people no, to me yes ( plus I picked some up 2nd hand ).
Lambo vs Ferrari ?
Linn vs Naim ?
Lotus vs TVR ?
Vinyl vs FLAC Digital ?
All are great, they are all personal preference, non are 'snake oil' they offer something different above Ford, Vauxhall, Sony and LG.......
I used to be a strong believer in freedom of speech, but with the advent of internet forums I'm not so sure anymore. These forums just seem to attract the "keyboard warrior" types who troll into discussions on topics they have little or no knowledge off, yet expect their "opinion" to have some value.
Custodian stated earlier in the thread that he was using mains conditioners with his absolutely superb high-end system. A system that, like most of this quality, has probably evolved to this point over many years of working through umpteen combinations of equipment at significant cost. The law of diminishing returns hits fairly early with hi-fi gear imo, however, for those of us audiophiles seeking the absolute best audio performance it's a price worth paying because its the sharp end of that curve that allow the music to come alive and make the hairs on the back of your next stand up. I fully accept that for most people the sweet-spot for price/performance comes much earlier, but what I fail to understand is that given you've never heard his system ,you can in any way offer an opinion on whether him spending his OWN money on his OWN system has any value. Talk about sanctimonious.
Musical reproduction is certainly subjective but when I read comments like a basic Icon Audio amp (I've heard several Icon amps and they're good solid mid-fi amps), built to to a tight budget is somehow better in any way to Halcro monoblocks, I just have to shake my head in despair at the ignorance of the post. Particularly given the speaker load they are required to drive. Or that you have to move to a house from a flat otherwise a £500 systems will easily outperform £20k ones? Sorry, but the best acoustic environment I've ever had was my top floor flat with vaulted ceilings, whereas my current house in the sticks has terrible acoustics. Or that DACs make no difference, or that a £12 CD player is a perfectly good transport for a £3k DAC then I know that the poster has no experience or knowledge of what they're talking about.
Perhaps we should start using the "custard" rules on this forum, so that in order to start posting opinions on a bit of kit you can show you actually own something of a comparable standard.
For the record I'm something of a sceptic on the role of conditioners, cables and the like, and much more of an advocate for acoustic treatments, and synergy of system components, but if someone else believes that a quantum entanglement crystal improves the quality of THEIR system in THEIR environment who am i to argue without having heard it myself?
Custodian stated earlier in the thread that he was using mains conditioners with his absolutely superb high-end system. A system that, like most of this quality, has probably evolved to this point over many years of working through umpteen combinations of equipment at significant cost. The law of diminishing returns hits fairly early with hi-fi gear imo, however, for those of us audiophiles seeking the absolute best audio performance it's a price worth paying because its the sharp end of that curve that allow the music to come alive and make the hairs on the back of your next stand up. I fully accept that for most people the sweet-spot for price/performance comes much earlier, but what I fail to understand is that given you've never heard his system ,you can in any way offer an opinion on whether him spending his OWN money on his OWN system has any value. Talk about sanctimonious.
Musical reproduction is certainly subjective but when I read comments like a basic Icon Audio amp (I've heard several Icon amps and they're good solid mid-fi amps), built to to a tight budget is somehow better in any way to Halcro monoblocks, I just have to shake my head in despair at the ignorance of the post. Particularly given the speaker load they are required to drive. Or that you have to move to a house from a flat otherwise a £500 systems will easily outperform £20k ones? Sorry, but the best acoustic environment I've ever had was my top floor flat with vaulted ceilings, whereas my current house in the sticks has terrible acoustics. Or that DACs make no difference, or that a £12 CD player is a perfectly good transport for a £3k DAC then I know that the poster has no experience or knowledge of what they're talking about.
Perhaps we should start using the "custard" rules on this forum, so that in order to start posting opinions on a bit of kit you can show you actually own something of a comparable standard.
For the record I'm something of a sceptic on the role of conditioners, cables and the like, and much more of an advocate for acoustic treatments, and synergy of system components, but if someone else believes that a quantum entanglement crystal improves the quality of THEIR system in THEIR environment who am i to argue without having heard it myself?
I think we can all suss out someone who owns a Sanyo Midi System
Never had sex
Owns a Nissan Micra
BTW - On the Linn Forum, there is a high degree of 'snake oil' scepticism, but quite a few of Guys swear by the Fursman Power Conditioners, I am tempted but of course I will listen first then make an informed decision :-)
Never had sex
Owns a Nissan Micra
BTW - On the Linn Forum, there is a high degree of 'snake oil' scepticism, but quite a few of Guys swear by the Fursman Power Conditioners, I am tempted but of course I will listen first then make an informed decision :-)
Edited by Los Endos on Sunday 6th January 10:49
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I have these, I bought a spiked hi-fi stand as I was having low frequencies being picked up by the tonearm which meant that if anyone walked across the room when a record was on the speaker cones used to shake massively, it was sat on an oak table before. The spikes fixed the issue, but it also made a significant improvement to the whole system, no idea why. Is this real or is it just having a laugh?
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
It looks as though it's discontinued now - but Item Audio did something similar back in 2011.
The Silverstone
A mere £2000 bought you this highly tweaked computer with massive linear power supplies which require an entire ATX sized case to house (it's not for nothing that the computer industry has used switch mode PSUs for years...)
The heat from this beast must be something to behold.
The Silverstone
A mere £2000 bought you this highly tweaked computer with massive linear power supplies which require an entire ATX sized case to house (it's not for nothing that the computer industry has used switch mode PSUs for years...)
The heat from this beast must be something to behold.
qube_TA said:
Is this real or is it just having a laugh?
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
They get one thing right though. I use JRiver as my media centre and it really is excellent. The great thing about stuff like that is that it is so easy to compare. Other media players just aren't in the same league.http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
custodian said:
Halcros class B.? Wrong.
Pass labs. Class A to 100 watts. Same effect.
Perhaps I was thinking of the DM58 as that draws 350W while delivering up to 200W - that's a Class B ratio.Pass labs. Class A to 100 watts. Same effect.
The DM88 is the same with a few tweaks by Candy.
The DM88 inside
It looks nice enough but not exactly hand wired point to point. I'm sure it's very good but if it's affected by a mains conditioner I suspect you are hearing things that are not there or the PSU is not adequate for the price.
I suspect it's a Class AB which is basically running a Class B at high bias - unless you have deaf speakers I suspect you'll usually be in class A, most people rarely use more than 1W on average, so you probably are listening to class A, sorry for any offence (most amps are categorised into class relating to their full power, A, B, AB, H, C, D etc).
custodian said:
Icon Audio, basic high distortion push pull El34 output pair with very simple psi.
Please don't insult us with inaccurate gobbledygook
I detect you are becoming rather defensive, that was not my intention, I just like the technical details. Maybe you could even contribute in a positive way some time? It is PH after all!!Please don't insult us with inaccurate gobbledygook
THD measurements as you should know by now are meaningless, read up Lynn Olsen on THD
As I was discussing £1.5k amps (The Halcros are about £53k new, £13k used IIRC) the Icon is a good choice, probably the best sound you are going to get at that price point.
The PSU on a tube amp is for various technical reasons less important than on a transistor amp. Ok - lets just say those reasons - 1) Higher impedance, there is very little current flowing, 2) Single pole supply - in a complimentary and quasi complimentary transistor amp each half of the waveform plays through a different half of the PSU (Except on certain McIntosh amps).
Then in an tube amp you have about 2-3 (rather linear) tubes doing the amplifying work, rather than 4-8 rather non-linear transistors (actually using an opamp in the VAS is often better!) as in a transistor amp. This means the lazy Williamson GNFB that plagues most designs is applied with a lighter touch to a more linear system in a tube amp. The Halcro is supposed to avoid GNFB BTW, which is (a lot of the reason) why it sounds better than many others.
My own SE amp uses an Thorsten Loesch approach to feedback which avoid the phase shift pitfalls of traditional GNFB wrapped around tube power amps, but even so - the best sound at £1.5k will be from tube because the technology is simply better, if rather older
BTW this is not inaccurate gobbledygook, it's just the mechanics of what goes on under the shiny CNC aluminium front plate, which in my world is more important than the till receipt and associated hype.
Globs said:
Perhaps I was thinking of the DM58 as that draws 350W while delivering up to 200W - that's a Class B ratio.
The DM88 is the same with a few tweaks by Candy.
What do you mean by "Class B ratio"?The DM88 is the same with a few tweaks by Candy.
Globs said:
The DM88 inside
It looks nice enough but not exactly hand wired point to point. I'm sure it's very good but if it's affected by a mains conditioner I suspect you are hearing things that are not there or the PSU is not adequate for the price.
I see what looks like a choke in the PSU there - if so, even less reason for it's sound to be influenced by a power conditioner.It looks nice enough but not exactly hand wired point to point. I'm sure it's very good but if it's affected by a mains conditioner I suspect you are hearing things that are not there or the PSU is not adequate for the price.
Countdown said:
Can somebody tell me what a liquid air filter is supposed to do?
Thanks
It's to make those who need to have their egos massaged feel like they have succeeded in life and that they are "special" compared to the rest of us.Thanks
The more money they can show they have spent to get this effect, the better it makes them feel when they brag about it down the pub or on internet forums.
Funk said:
qube_TA said:
Is this real or is it just having a laugh?
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
They get one thing right though. I use JRiver as my media centre and it really is excellent. The great thing about stuff like that is that it is so easy to compare. Other media players just aren't in the same league.http://app.audiogon.com/listings/media-servers-cor...
The whole concept is stupid on so many levels if true.
StuH said:
Perhaps we should start using the "custard" rules on this forum, so that in order to start posting opinions on a bit of kit you can show you actually own something of a comparable standard.
Ah.Trouble is, I'm responsible for these apparently:
The_Burg said:
I find it very hard to find anything truly listenable these days, compression and the old loudness war renders modern stuff painful.
Globs said:
At the end of the day however the shocking state of piss poor CD mastering generally has a far bigger effect on the sound, purists worrying about the imaginary nuances would be shocked if they saw the waveforms coming off CDs into their futile-ly expensive CD players and DACs.
So clearly my input is worthless. Or they're some of the typical sweeping statements which are always trotted out as "reasoning" or "explanation."
Why oh why do I always get sucked in?
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